Yes, you should slide it constantly.
Yes, you should slide it constantly.
mazdeuce wrote: What do you mean? If I try to drive clean? So I should be trying to slide the car constantly? That's going to take some getting used to. Driving the 2 tidy was almost always the fastest way. For now I'll mostly be just driving because I really do need to learn how to listen to what the car is doing underneath me. It's all pretty foreign right now.
In my experience, trying to drive a rwd car "tidy" on a loose surface is a lost cause. This is not a case of choosing to slide, but when you're going fast enough, you will have no other choice.
mazdeuce wrote: What do you mean? If I try to drive clean? So I should be trying to slide the car constantly? That's going to take some getting used to.
Ayup. That's part of the fun, though. The challenge. The thrill when you lay down a good lap. And plus, debeads? They ain't gonna happen.
Here's someone doing the absolute RWD smackdown in 2012. He beat us all by like ten minutes.
...okay let's try to link that again.
NONACK wrote:mazdeuce wrote: What do you mean? If I try to drive clean? So I should be trying to slide the car constantly? That's going to take some getting used to. Driving the 2 tidy was almost always the fastest way. For now I'll mostly be just driving because I really do need to learn how to listen to what the car is doing underneath me. It's all pretty foreign right now.In my experience, trying to drive a rwd car "tidy" on a loose surface is a lost cause. This is not a case of choosing to slide, but when you're going fast enough, you will have no other choice.
I wish you had come to the "tuner" event last summer. That was loose dirt and grass (very slippery in the morning) and I was crushing Roberto's times there (whereas we're very close on the Summit hardpack). But it was a technical course where much sliding would have been difficult to keep the car on-course. Would have liked to see how you adjusted your driving style there. Hopefully we have another event there next year.
Agree on the "no other choice" aspect, and it's why I drive so clean. Because I don't drive fast enough :P
Knurled wrote:mazdeuce wrote: What do you mean? If I try to drive clean? So I should be trying to slide the car constantly? That's going to take some getting used to.Ayup. That's part of the fun, though. The challenge. The thrill when you lay down a good lap. And plus, debeads? They ain't gonna happen. Here's someone doing the absolute RWD smackdown in 2012. He beat us all by like ten minutes. ...okay let's try to link that again. Video!
How I would love to have that kind of surface where we run.......
Tulsa is slippery compared to the kind of stuff we normally run on. Takes me a bunch to get used to. That's why this year I co-drove something I'd never driven on course before - no expectations of grip to make me do stupid things.
Of course, I did stupid things anyway, like set up flicks through corners I should have just lifted slightly and drove through normally... but it was a bunch of fun all the same.
Gah. OK, pull the rear bar and learn to drive faster. I can do that.
It took me ten years of learning to drive and learning what does and doesn't work in the car to finally get to the point where I was posting really good times. Then someone comes along and shows me that I can't drive all that well, then someone else comes along and shows me that my car isn't as fast as it could be either.
The upside is that no matter what, you will always be able to improve as a driver, and you'll always have areas where you can improve your car. Just need to approach everything analytically - what works, what doesn't, etc.
I know what DOESN'T work, that's for sure 
mazdeuce wrote: Gah. OK, pull the rear bar and learn to drive faster. I can do that.
This, except don't even worry about 'faster' yet. For me, rwd in the dirt demands more attention from the driver. You have to know what the front end is doing/going to do and what the rear end is doing/going to do. It is arguably 'harder' to 'get it right' and be fast than fwd or awd.
Ditch that rear bar and have fun while you learn to feel what the front end is doing (probably the hardest part in your situation given the wonderful stock steering setup).
Edit: You're also currently running on all season tires, correct? Their limits will generally be quite easily exceeded in the dirt adding considerably to the challenge of rwd dirt mastery.
Knurled wrote: It took me ten years of learning to drive and learning what does and doesn't work in the car........
I spent the two days of nationals talking to people and trying to figure out what to replace the 2 with. When it came down to it, I enjoy driving well more than I enjoy actually winning. After spending half of my life in FWD cars I was at the point where I wasn't going to make huge strides in my driving ability. I'm bummed I didn't get to see where I stacked up nationally. Anyway, I went into this knowing that I don't know how to drive RWD at speed and the process of learning is really the whole destination here.
mazdeuce wrote: I spent the two days of nationals talking to people and trying to figure out what to replace the 2 with. When it came down to it, I enjoy driving well more than I enjoy actually winning. After spending half of my life in FWD cars I was at the point where I wasn't going to make huge strides in my driving ability. I'm bummed I didn't get to see where I stacked up nationally. Anyway, I went into this knowing that I don't know how to drive RWD at speed and the process of learning is really the whole destination here.
If I wasn't worried about having to buy the car from Avis, I would have let you drive the rental Mustang. That way we could have shared the honor of being the slowest drivers (while still having a blast) of the event. It's all about seat time, it will click at an event down the road.
mazdeuce wrote: What do you mean? If I try to drive clean? So I should be trying to slide the car constantly?
My car is in a constant slide on course. You can't sacrifice any momentum with RWD. I use 22mm/19mm sway bars on the E30, set to the highest setting up front, lowest setting out back. Flat and sliding, that's how I attack it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nj3KqNy3U
The previous owner chimed in on the build thread and reminded me that there's a watts link u der the car and that's probably where my bind is coming into play. Not that the knowledge changes anything, and now I remember seeing it under the car and thinking "wow, a Watts, cool" but then I promptly forgot about it.
The Watts doesn't cause a bind, it just has a high roll center which can be good or bad depending on what you want.
The 4 link is what causes the bind. You can remove the Watts entirely and the suspension still won't want to move.
Interesting. I probably need to pull the springs and cycle things to get a feeling for what's going on. The more I learn the more I don't know the things that I think I know.
mazdeuce wrote: Interesting. I probably need to pull the springs and cycle things to get a feeling for what's going on. The more I learn the more I don't know the things that I think I know.
They wont cycle, those old bushings will be rusted solid, guaranteed, best way to get them out is heat or a drill, drill through then let the drill rotate around the bushing until it has completely separated the inside from the outside, then burn out the remaining rubber.
Yeah they are that bad
The car has less rust on it than a new car after a Michigan summer. It's beat, but it's clean. My initial thought is that rubber bushings would give me a 'soft' bind instead of slamming into a bind condition with poly bushings. Kind of like the old mustang rear suspension? Maybe?
EvanB wrote: Yes, you should slide it constantly.
Hi I am late to the party and I approve the above messages of my competitors.
slide it
remove sway bars.
profit?
I don't really understand the science of suspension tuning so I prefer to just have something thats durable so I don't have to replace it. lots of FB guys use FC front subframe/suspensions and then you can go to rack and pinion steering. The swap is relatively easy from what I can tell/have heard.
sway bars are purley driver feel. My roommate argues with me (competitive STX rx8 driver) that I need a front sway bar or at least a small bar, but I just left foot brake to make my car turn or aide its turning abilities.
Basically you have to dance my car around a track but I've pulled some FTDs this year or damn close to it.
Knurled: at our last event (day/night event) I beat the 911 with scott behind the wheel. not overall time but I beat his fastest time :)
and we overheated the engine that day, ran 3 drivers and burned about 3-4 quarts of oil :)
I just remembered that you have spacers on your springs. When turned hard over, could they be suddenly firming up your spring rates messing up the spring curve? Just a thought. Maybe truly longer springs might make things more progressive?
Longer springs and functional bump stops would take a lot of the guess work out of what's happening, that's for sure. I'm autocrossing the car on Sunday so that will provide another data point.
On dirt, traction is more important than body roll. Since swaybars work by lifting a wheel, they don't really help in this application. I took the swaybars off my first rallycar and saw better stage times immediately.
Jay_W wrote: On dirt, traction is more important than body roll. Since swaybars work by lifting a wheel, they don't really help in this application. I took the swaybars off my first rallycar and saw better stage times immediately.
You'd think, but I lost front end grip when I retuned the suspension to keep both front tires on the ground instead of carrying the inside one a bit. 100% weight transfer to drive the outside tire into the ground gets more grip than keeping them both on the ground.
Now, it's more consistent, which is nice, but there's less grip, which is not. I'm thinking of going back to stiffer springs and faster steering to make mid-corner corrections easier. 1.5 turns lock to lock sounds about right.
Regarding the rear suspension, an eye opener of a visual is to remove one (1) upper link bolt and then cycle the suspension. The geometry problems become apparent when you have the axle articulated over and the link is two inches too short.... then you articulate it the other way and the link is too long.
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