Range Rover versus Disco in the sub $2500 range?

Chris_V wrote: In reply to Junkyard_Dog: P38 BeCMs aren't that hard to diagnose and deal with, actually. http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/becm/index.html "Most BECM problems are not especially fatal except those relating to alarm functions, which can lock you out and/or disable the ECM and prevent the engine from starting." So enter the generic code of 1515 in the US and be on your way. Unlock once lock 5 times, unlock once, and then lock 5 times. ;)

Duh.

1515 is the only EKA code used in the USA. It also has nothing to do with reprogramming a used one. You still have VIN mismatch, mileage gets set to whatever is higher the BeCM or the I/P, and you need to reprogram the immobilization to get the car to start consistently. All that required a dealer or VERY good independent. As for not being fatal I covered that already. Is a bad driver leaving the RF park light on all the time fatal? No. Will it kill your battery? Hell yes! Sure you can take the bulb out, but then you'd be a hack. A customer received 4 tickets before he replaced the module. $1300 for a park light. Think about that for a moment and tell me they're cheap to own. If you want to debate further shoot me an email.

I like Rovers, but for $5000 you can get a POS P38 or a really nice Cherokee thats 5 years newer. I miss my old Cherokee too.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Duh. 1515 is the only EKA code used in the USA. It also has nothing to do with reprogramming a used one. You still have VIN mismatch, mileage gets set to whatever is higher the BeCM or the I/P, and you need to reprogram the immobilization to get the car to start consistently. All that required a dealer or VERY good independent. As for not being fatal I covered that already. Is a bad driver leaving the RF park light on all the time fatal? No. Will it kill your battery? Hell yes! Sure you can take the bulb out, but then you'd be a hack. A customer received 4 tickets before he replaced the module. $1300 for a park light. Think about that for a moment and tell me they're cheap to own. If you want to debate further shoot me an email. I like Rovers, but for $5000 you can get a POS P38 or a really nice Cherokee thats 5 years newer. I miss my old Cherokee too.

If you look at the link I provided, you know that you actually rarely need a recode, as a lot of what is diagnosed as BeCM problems really end up not needing a replacement. Kind of like how on my '01 the spark plug wires are listed at $45 per wire at the dealership and it supposedly takes 4+ hours to install due to having to remove the intake or some such nonsense. I did it for $50 total for a complete 8mm wire set and a half hour labor.

I run into the same stuff with the BMW 740iL. BMW techs say they cost bank to keep running, but it turns out, it only does if you go to the dealer. An example is the OSV (Oil Separator valve). $100 in parts and a half hour of your time replaces it if it goes bad. $1500 if you go to the dealer, as they charge to remove the intake and more (if they diagnose it right. So often people are roped into a complete engine rebuild due to the smoke on startup. I saved a new 740i owner $3500-5000 a couple months ago by replacing his OSV after two dealers told him he needed a complete engine rebuild).

I'm just saying, from a dealer tech point of view, they all cost a lot of money to keep running. From a typical GRM owner point of view, they don't cost hardly anything at all. All my cars are proof of that.

Chris_V wrote: I'm just saying, from a dealer tech point of view, they all cost a lot of money to keep running. From a typical GRM owner point of view, they don't cost hardly anything at all. All my cars are proof of that.

Once again email me to discuss.

I must say I'm really tired of you saying that dealers in general and Me in particular don't know what we're doing. I've tried to be helpful by offering my input. I never wanted to get dragged into a debate with someone whose experience is with 3 vehicles, as opposed to the thousands I've worked on in over 10 years. OP make of this what you will. I'm done.

Chris_V if you want to continue insulting me man up and do it in private, or better yet in person.

My two-cents here..

I'd say it depends on the vehicle and how willing you are to get dirty up to the elbows on some cars. But hey, isn't that true of most anything?

I'm sure there are some great Land Rovers out there. I read a bit on a forum recently as I saw a great deal on a 96 Rover. I passed. I didn't see anything the Rover would do that a Bronco couldn't. Ultimately it comes down to passion. If you're passionate about Rover's...you're f'in buying one! Saab's are like this too.

But like a lot of cars if you like them enough to not mind working on them I'm sure they'll be much more economical to own. Especially if you're able to avoid shop labor rates, dealership or otherwise. More Reliable? Who knows?

I find as I get older I'm less inclined to wrench. I would just rather drive the car than spend time working on it.

Not very grassroots of me to say but it's the place in life I am right now. I used to be more punk.

Junkyard Dog/Chris V: I own a 99 DiscoII and am more than slightly interested in this discussion. If you are going to continue to debate, please don't "take it to email". I don't think their is a need for a fight, just a point/counterpoint that many of us can benefit from.
JYD-I would argue that you assume every Rover is going to have all of the expensive problems and they are all going to be fixed to perfection making your 15k estimate possible. I do think people who work on certain vehicles for a living get overexposed to problems and can get a hypercritical eye.

ChrisV-You seem to buy vehicles in a nice part of the depreciation curve and seem to have done well avoiding major repair. From my experience on the Rover forums, you are slightly lucky.

So AFAIK the possible problems that seem to occur with frequency on DiscoII's are:
1) abs or prop valve around $1300 complete or $700 for half
2) Head Gaskets for around $300
3) Front driveshaft for $150 for joints or $300 outright.
4) Airbag suspension for $200 for springs up to $1000 for complete system rebuild
5) Horn button spring breaks, cost ? (haven't priced fixing that one)

What else am I missing?

3) if it breaks before you catch it.. $$$$

One of the reasons I got a I instead of a II.

MrJoshua wrote: 2) Head Gaskets for around $300

This is a "parts only" cost right? I can't imagine a shop changing head gaskets for that price.

Xceler8x wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: 2) Head Gaskets for around $300

This is a "parts only" cost right? I can't imagine a shop changing head gaskets for that price.

Parts only and a very rough guesstimate.

Look at what just showed up on the classifieds:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/classifieds/1874/

what about a Laforza? They are even weirder than rovers are, there is a decent one on my local cl for $2500. lol Id be scared to buy it.

There's one in the town I work in for pretty cheap. I passed!

My wife has wanted a Disco for years, I keep balking because of the talk, I am hands on but no technician, besides I don't want her in an unreliable car.

Am I being overly cautious, or is it a lottery

My only experience with a Rover was a Classic my old boss owned. Therefore, allow me to speak with authority...

Seems to me that if you (a) don't mind getting your hands dirty, (2) wish to improve your electrical diagnostic skills, (D) don't mind ancillaries failing, (IV) are comfortable with the chance of a major headache, and (%) are willing to chalk all of the above up to 'charm' and 'character,' you might be a Rover owner. If you want/need a 100% reliable vehicle with no warning lights and everything perfect, it's likely a Rover will make you prematurely bald or grey, or bald from pulling your grey hair out.

My boss's classic had so many random electrical failures it was comical. My favorite: his air suspension 'worked,' in the sense that it would self-'level' sitting at idle. So, he'd be warming it up and the right front corner would drop, then raise back up, just randomly.

It met its fate one night when the parking pawl failed on the hill in front of the shop (obviously the e-brake didn't work), and it rolled across the street, down that hill, then hit the cinderblock building at the bottom of the retaining wall that no one knew was there, setting off the building alarm at about 2am. If the back wheels weren't two feet off the ground, it probably would have driven out. As it sat, though, it almost dragged down the small tow truck that first came out to get it. They had to call Kong, the semi tow rig, to pull it out.

Thing still ran great, and tracked (pretty) straight, despite a crinkle in the frame that set the rear doors vertically askew.

After that, the other side of the street was called Rover Gulch, and everyone in the shop lauded him for his instant SWB conversion technique.

All that said, I'm really afraid I'm going to end up owning one.

alex wrote: My boss's classic had so many random electrical failures it was comical. My favorite: his air suspension 'worked,' in the sense that it would self-'level' sitting at idle. So, he'd be warming it up and the right front corner would drop, then raise back up, just randomly.

That is a hilarious electrical failure story....

A bit like an accidental low rider, on one corner at least.

alex wrote: Seems to me that if you (a) don't mind getting your hands dirty, (2) wish to improve your electrical diagnostic skills, (D) don't mind ancillaries failing, (IV) are comfortable with the chance of a major headache, and (%) are willing to chalk all of the above up to 'charm' and 'character,' you might be a Rover owner. If you want/need a 100% reliable vehicle with no warning lights and everything perfect, it's likely a Rover will make you prematurely bald or grey, or bald from pulling your grey hair out.

I think the above is 100% true, and one of the reasons I have one. My buddy who is a LR tech was the one who just told me, "buy it, you will be fine." Having owned a dozen VW's of various vintage and a B5 Audi S4 I can't say anything with it is worse then any of those vehicles.

Xceler8x wrote:

alex wrote: My boss's classic had so many random electrical failures it was comical. My favorite: his air suspension 'worked,' in the sense that it would self-'level' sitting at idle. So, he'd be warming it up and the right front corner would drop, then raise back up, just randomly.

That is a hilarious electrical failure story.... A bit like an accidental low rider, on one corner at least.

Oh, they all did it. Often, after he'd park only one corner or one end would decide to deflate, leaving it sitting at a funny angle. But it always pumped back up, and never acted weird while driving.

Thanks for the informative discussion.

I very nearly bought a Laforza a couple of years ago, but I don't think the Ford drivetrain is flat towable 9though I could be wrong). If it is fllat towable, I'd almost rather have one of those just "because".

I've seriously considered a Wagoneer as well (have owned a few in the past) but I think they have the same flat tow issue (except for the uber-rare manuals). Not really any interest in a Wrangler (might as well keep the Tracker) or a Cherokee.

I also had a strong desire for a 3 door 4x4 Suburban (with the plans to drop a modern 5.3 drivetrain and modern Sub interior into) but that never got beyond the planning stages.

From the discussion I'm leaning more towards the Disco just to keep things simpler... if the dollar would come back a little stronger (and a few of my vehicles would sale) I might consider importing a carbed 2 door Range Rover... sounds like from a maintenance angle, that would be the one to have... but then that would be a sight more dear than $2500...

Thanks again! Bill

The Laforza np229 transfer case is apparently flat-towable, so guess what I'm jonesing for now? (Plus both the cheap leather/moonroofs 5sp SE7's near me turned out to be losers... )

Travis_K, my wife said she would personally like to show her appreciation for your suggestion of the Laforza. I'd keep a low profile when visiting MD if I were you... ;-)

If you and/or Paul could forward me info on the ones you know about I'd appreciate it. (And I promise not to tell her where I got the leads from).

Have a lead on a (reportedly clean) local truck with a blown engine... and a lead on a region wrecked truck with a good low mileage drivetrain... but so far neither seller is being very responsive.

And since I'll have the engine out anyway I'm also daydreaming about what manual trans might fit in place of the Ford AOD...

http://delaware.craigslist.org/cto/1566490540.html

I called the guy once with no callback, but after looking them up online I didn't try real hard to get in touch any more.

I still want a Sub or Execution, but neither are mrs approved.

That's the one.

Guy finally called back... I bought the truck this evening. Knew it wouldn't fit on my little car trailer; rented a u-haul trailer to go pick it up... didn't fit on that either. Going to risk driving it home this weekend, though the lower end sounds like it will shoot a rod through the block at any time...

wcelliot wrote: That's the one. Guy finally called back... I bought the truck this evening. Knew it wouldn't fit on my little car trailer; rented a u-haul trailer to go pick it up... didn't fit on that either. Going to risk driving it home this weekend, though the lower end sounds like it will shoot a rod through the block at any time...

Pics!

wcelliot wrote: That's the one. Guy finally called back... I bought the truck this evening. Knew it wouldn't fit on my little car trailer; rented a u-haul trailer to go pick it up... didn't fit on that either. Going to risk driving it home this weekend, though the lower end sounds like it will shoot a rod through the block at any time...

I drove a Ford F150 that sounded like that for hours. I'm not saying yours will last that long but it could. I'd have someone follow you AND a AAA card in your pocket just in case.

In reply to Xceler8x:

That's the plan... plus with a tow strap to quickly get me off the road if I stop dead...

Pix: http://www.fnader.com/Laforza.htm

Same truck that was in the car corral at Import Carlisle two years ago; I darn near bought it back then....

Funny...Who knew that there was any other use for a second hand RR other than as a donor for a MGB V8 conversion?

Guess I learn something every day

Im curious to know how the la forza turns out after you have it a while, I think i want one. lol