So I've been getting the itch to do some racing and the funds are there to do something like a 3 day race school. I'm very strongly considering doing one at Road America. Has anyone done one? What did you think? You qualify for your SCCA license during it correct? What safety equipment do I need before hand?
I realize this isn't very Grassroots as it costs 1.7 challengers however I hoped someone could give me the lowdown.
I did the 3-day school in their MX-5s at Lime Rock. We shared the track with a concurrent Formula school.
It was a while ago, but at the time I wrote it up in a thread over here.
It was a valuable course, read the book beforehand to get the most out of it. It's good for compressing a lot of learning into a couple days, but not really a substitute for a E36 M3-ton of track time.
Pretty much arrive & drive at RA. It's been a while for me, but they had helmets and suits. They advised on shoes, but weren't insistent on true race shoes/gloves. I remember one knucklehead showed up in boots. 1st day is a lot of classroom time, vehicle dynamics, apexing/racing line and autocross/skidpad - miatas and RX8s. It's a good fast-track for getting on the track for wheel to wheel racing. As far as actuall skills, there's no substitute for seat time, so I think the NASA HPDE graduated stuff prepares people better on the situation awareness front more than one intensive weekend.
oldtin wrote: Pretty much arrive & drive at RA. It's been a while for me, but they had helmets and suits. They advised on shoes, but weren't insistent on true race shoes/gloves. I remember one knucklehead showed up in boots.
I got that beat! A woman in my class showed up in CLOGS.
But yes, they recommend bringing your own race gloves, but don't actually require it. They did draw the line at clogs, but otherwise didn't care about shoes.
If you have zero track time, ever, in anything read the "Going Faster" book and take your car to 5 well run, instructed HPDE's for the same money. I would have said 6-7 but you need money for brakes and tires :)
I'm not dissing Barber at all, great school - but it's almost 3k plus airfare and you can spend a whole lot more time in the seat, driving if you do it in your own car. In the long run - if you have any aptitude at all - seat time building muscle memory is what counts most. Spreading it out over a season also allows you to build on the skills each event because you are totally overwhelmed in the beginning and really can only learn a little bit of muscle memory in 3 days. It's just not going to stick. It will be 3 days of awesome fun - but then afterward you will be looking at how to get back to the track anyway... and that means prepping a car with $3k less in your pocket. May as well cut to the chase.
GPS that's what I'm looking at.. My issue is I need a Race car to do those HDPE's in. I've done 3 HDPE's in the past and numerous Autox's and have some Karting experience I am not a stranger to the art. I would like to get to doing W2W action and was not sure if this is a shortcut to get on track. I've been looking at Formula Fords and Formula V's and am not sure how you get those onto a Track other than having your competition liscence. That said it seems Skippy isn't quite the shortcut to the competition liscence It presents itself to be so I'm also interested in how to get your W2W liscence. Maybe I should take my $3600 and look for a Track prepped ITC car? We have Midwester Council in my area as well As SCCA and Quite a few track within 5 hours of my house. Just not sure where to start.
I think GPS sums it up, unless you have more money than time. (I hear that actually happens with some people that can afford to W2W race.) At that point, it's a pretty compelling value.
If you want to dip a toe in the pool, and/or are planning on renting cars for your school or first season, it's a great value. (Think limited liability.)
SCCA offers a few double-school weekends that will send you home with a provisional license in you're on a tight timeframe, but already have a car. Bring a crew member...and a reliable car from what I hear.
I have been postponing getting a competition license for the last 3 years because Lemons and Chump have been scratching my W2W itch. I feel they provide an alternative to get acclimated with W2W competition and build a skill set without jumping into SCCA/NASA with both feet if you already have a good foundation of car control. May even be enough to do it for you, plus you can race with your friends (if they're all like-minded car geeks.)
I've been hesitant to buy the trailer, ITx car, double school weekend, etc for SCCA. I only have enough time to get out 2-4 weekends a year, which is barely enough to keep your license up.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I'm not dissing Barber at all, great school - but it's almost 3k plus airfare and you can spend a whole lot more time in the seat, driving if you do it in your own car. In the long run - if you have any aptitude at all - seat time building muscle memory is what counts most. Spreading it out over a season also allows you to build on the skills each event because you are totally overwhelmed in the beginning and really can only learn a little bit of muscle memory in 3 days. It's just not going to stick. It will be 3 days of awesome fun - but then afterward you will be looking at how to get back to the track anyway... and that means prepping a car with $3k less in your pocket. May as well cut to the chase.
I will agree with just about everything you said, except that (after re-reading my posts on the subject) I found borrowing their fully-prepped cars and working against other students in identical cars to be a big point in favor of Skippy School.
I can comfortably say that I drove their cars to my 10/10ths. The only other time I've been slightly sideways coming out of the Downhill at LRP is in a sim. My track car is a toy car that I'm willing to write off, but I have never driven it to that extreme, even at a HPDE.
I certainly agree that repeated visits to a HPDEs will be better than one weekend with Skip, but if nocones is using it as an intro to Formula cars or as a major leap forward in track skills, there is significant benefit.
The ideal world, of course, would be to start off the season with a Skippy School and then do a lot of HPDEs.
Hmm.. Lemons/chump.. Perhaps another learn me thread is in order..
With Lemons/chump can you build 1 car that can run in both series?
nocones wrote: GPS that's what I'm looking at.. My issue is I need a Race car to do those HDPE's in. I've done 3 HDPE's in the past and numerous Autox's and have some Karting experience I am not a stranger to the art. I would like to get to doing W2W action and was not sure if this is a shortcut to get on track. I've been looking at Formula Fords and Formula V's and am not sure how you get those onto a Track other than having your competition liscence. That said it seems Skippy isn't quite the shortcut to the competition liscence It presents itself to be so I'm also interested in how to get your W2W liscence. Maybe I should take my $3600 and look for a Track prepped ITC car? We have Midwester Council in my area as well As SCCA and Quite a few track within 5 hours of my house. Just not sure where to start.
If wheel to wheel is what you are after - buy someone else's fully prepped, log-booked car and then go over it, freshen what you need. Don't get bogged down in building a race car at all. Just get one. Rent a spec Miata to do comp school while you are shopping. They go for ~$800/day.
Go to NASA, SCCA, etc and do their comp school. Many have a race immediately following school - pick one of those. They might require some proof of your past driving to let you in but mostly they aren't dicks about it. Contact them to have the car teched beforehand or to arrange that with them for when you arrive.
I think you need to up your car budget - you can buy a race car for that money but you can't race it for that. It will need things. Stupid, expensive things (like a $400 transponder or fire bottle or seat or....) and extra wheels, rain tires, body work... then there are entry fees... license fees... doctor's fees... fire suits and socks and HANS costs. You can split chump car races for $3600 for a season but you can't realistically go w2w on it many other ways.
I haven't seen a thing that beats if for the price.
I've done it and done a couple of others and Skip's school is better.
nocones wrote: I realize this isn't very Grassroots as it costs 1.7 challengers however I hoped someone could give me the lowdown.
What isn't Grassroots about getting proper driving instruction? I've said it before, and I'll say it again......Grassroots does not = Cheap! 
Just because you have to spend $$ on something, that doesn't mean it isn't true to the spirit of GRM. Truth be told.....most of our readers spend a ton of money on their racing habit / hobby. That's why GRM is full of advertising---- our readers buy stuff.......lots and lots of stuff....some of it very expensive.
Repeat after me class.........GRM does not = Cheap!
In Reply to Joe I know that, it just seems everytime you discuss anything above the foundation of the Pyramid of speed/expense around here the "that's not grassroots" brigade comes on hard..
My budget for Racing would be significantly higher than the $3600. You have given me lots to think about. I agree completely with the no build approach and buy. I'm thinking I may just go all in on Karting (I have a WKA legal KT100 kart) this year/potentially buy a TAG Kart and re-evaluate next off season.
Sorry this has turned into a Me sounding like an idiot who has no idea what I want. Thanks for playing along everyone.
nocones wrote: I'm thinking I may just go all in on Karting (I have a WKA legal KT100 kart) this year/potentially buy a TAG Kart and re-evaluate next off season.
That is a great low budget option if you have good karting competition close by. I would have liked to go that route a few years ago but I had already established a bunch of good friends, camping buddies and fellow fabricating resources by climbing the club racing ladder and it is hard to walk away from those ties - I struggled with the same thing when looking at SRFs and sports racers. They all make more sense than a home-made tube chassis E30 (soon to have S54 power and formula car IRS!) but that isn't where I landed.
Good luck with wherever you go - but DO go and do it somehow. I put it off for a long time with excuses (money, time, yada...) but once I finally took that first green... waiting all that time was stupid. It's one of the best things I've ever done. Wrecks, blown engines, wasted money and all. You can't ever tell stories about the things you didn't do when you are too old to do them any more.
$3600 to buy a TaG kart and $3600 to race it all season are reasonable numbers - assuming you've got a trailer or pickup to haul it in and somewhere to store it already.
$500 per race breaks down to $200 in tires, $100 in entry fees, $100 in mechanicals, $100 for towing and camping. Mount new tires for qualifying every race.
You could also do the Tim Hannen 2-day kart school at OVRP before laying your money down.
No harm nocones--- it's just one of my pet peeves.
We've spent the last 27 years proving to our clients that our readers are not cheap, it always gets under my skin when that misconception rears it's ugly head. After all, who would want to advertise in a magazine if the readers never bought anything! Fortunately, our readers are quite the opposite, and buy a TON of stuff from our advertisers. This is why you see the same companies advertising with us for years and years.
I do like the Karting idea! Karts offer a ton of bang for the buck!
One tip if you are going to go with Skip Barber - attend a race at the same track where you want to attend (if local), and put down a deposit. I did that and saved over 30% on the list price of a 2 Day Advanced Driving class. With what the 3 Day classes cost, you could save a ton of money that way!
I did the Skippy formula school yrs ago(a gift from my wife for Xmas and B-day). I had no racing experience at that point. I think that it took a yr or more off the learning curve of racing and gave me very good fundamentals of driving a car at speed. It didnt help me to learn much about the fundamentals of racing W2W. But seriously how many times will you have a real driving expert available to teach you and critique your driving. SCCA and other HPDE's dont require much in the sense of experience to be a teacher. I didnt always use what SB taught me in my racing because I never again sat in a formula car but I knew how to be mechanically sympathetic to a race car with both braking and shifting techniques plus I generally would find my own fast line around a track. YMMV
I got 2 Skip Schools for no cost by corner working their races. It was a long time ago but you might check into it.
BMW CCA Racing Schools are also much cheaper, although you must provide your own car. It can be a street car however. Your driving ability must also be verified by an instructor before they will let you participate.
I'm sure Skip Barber is very good but there are a number of other racing schools to choose from. I went to the school at Hallett in Oklahoma and really liked it (full disclosure: the track and school are owned by my cousins, but it is a fun track, you get a ton of seat time, and they do a very good job.)
It is totally Grassroots. For the cost of a professional turbo kit, you will be getting something that will make every car you get in faster.
There is a lot to learn from a Skip Barber school. I took the 3-day MX-5 course at Laguna Seca. Went from that to being solidly competitive in my 944Spec class in the region. Not a front runner, but holding my own pretty high in the mid pack. The instructors were excellent and had flexibility in the exercises to really focus what skills and direction they were giving to each driver to help them all improve. We had basic newbies with myself and a couple others who had track time and either raced already or were getting ready to make that jump.
That said, it is not a guarantee of meeting requirements to get your W2W competition license. You can ask them to write off that you're good enough. They do not have to though. If this is your very first foray into open track, they very well might not.
I would recommend getting yourself out to HPDE with solid instruction (I've had great luck for that with NASA) first. Being out on track for the first time is intimidating. There is a lot to handle. The first things you need to get used to are just being comfortable and looking around. I think you'll get better value for this at an HPDE than a racing school. Do enough HPDE's that managing track conditions, traffic, and flaggers is natural and you are able to focus your attention on what you and the car are doing. Then you will be able to get the most out of the instruction they give you. Get over that initial nervousness.
There is, of course, the danger of learning bad habits in HPDE, that you will just need to unlearn at Skippy. I did not have too much of that. Can't say whether or not you will.
stuart in mn wrote: I'm sure Skip Barber is very good but there are a number of other racing schools to choose from. I went to the school at Hallett in Oklahoma and really liked it (full disclosure: the track and school are owned by my cousins, but it is a fun track, you get a ton of seat time, and they do a very good job.)
Stephens Brothers!
I'm considering doing that in my Miata this year, but it seems the track is always so busy that they aren't doing the schools as much as they used to.
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