"Reopening" the Discussion. HPDE vs Race School

Hello everyone. I've been determining what I want to do since I'm trying to get on the "fast track" to a skilled W2W/Time Trial driver. I've read many sides of the debate and it seems that some recommend you go to a race school before even attending HPDEs because that will allow you to build up proper fundamentals which you can repeat at the track. Most say that while HPDEs can improve driver skill, they are not necessarily going to make you the fastest. Then there is the other side of the debate that says you should attend a few HPDEs before going to race school because the information will be overwhelming. What does everyone think? I'm thinking of running with NASA as far as TT/W2W goes.

Both have merits. Race school is the fast track to w2w licensing. That isn't necessarily the fast track to learning racecraft. Much depends on the instruction you get whether at a school or through hpde. Going with an HPDE process will get you more seat/track time. That's a good thing if you're learning and progressing. It's not a good thing if you're developing bad habits. I think the costs are probably comparable (perhaps minus wear and tear on your car). I realize that's not much help. I've done both - through a well known school and NASA. One of my name brand instructors was very good. Another was phoning it in. Had good folks at NASA.

I've done both and was personally more comfortable with progressing through HPDEs first. They gave me a chance to slowly ramp up my driving with different cars and get comfortable with increasing levels of passing in a lower risk environment. By the time I went to race school, I felt I was nearing the safe limit of DOT tires on street cars and felt ready for a cage.

I think race school as a first step while helpful would be kind of like drinking from the fire hose. An instructor might be able to point out a lot, but you will be learning so many new things that it is hard to correct them all in the day or two of school. What I found helpful was to have more experienced drivers and instructors sometimes ride along at an HPDE and look for bad habits.

I went through that debate and started doing HPDEs. I do think I'll probably try for a school next year as an accelerator once I'm to a point where I feel like I've got a good baseline. My first couple of proper sessions with an instructor were sensory overload anyways, can't imagine that would've been any better in an unfamiliar car at a race school.

Do a couple of HPDEs, spend some time memorizing flagging, go rent a seat at a couple of Lemons races and get 5 years worth of W2W experience in a season.

Then, if you're really into it, go to a 3-day school and get a provisional comp license.

That was my plan, except I found that I have all of the competition, comraderie, and mentors I need between Chump and Lemons, so I never took the last step.

I've done the traditional HPDE to TT to W2W path. All in all, it took me 3 seasons to go from HPDE1 to W2W. I don't think I rushed the process, as there is plenty to learn in all the stages. I wouldn't change anything if I had to do it all again.

I do know people who have come into the sport with no experience, taken a few race schools, and gone straight to W2W. Some of these people have done phenomenally, others are probably still at an intermediate skill level but are licensed due to paying for the school.

It really is going to depend on what type of learner you are. If you are going to try to fast track it, you will need to do your homework outside of track weekends. Competition/Race school is a very serious weekend, and many of those who have spent a few season making their way up HPDE do not pass competition/race school the first time around. NASA's program is one of the best as they have a standardized test and program throughout the country.

christinaylam wrote: I've done the traditional HPDE to TT to W2W path. All in all, it took me 3 seasons to go from HPDE1 to W2W. I don't think I rushed the process, as there is plenty to learn in all the stages. I wouldn't change anything if I had to do it all again. I do know people who have come into the sport with no experience, taken a few race schools, and gone straight to W2W. Some of these people have done phenomenally, others are probably still at an intermediate skill level but are licensed due to paying for the school. It really is going to depend on what type of learner you are. If you are going to try to fast track it, you will need to do your homework outside of track weekends. Competition/Race school is a very serious weekend, and many of those who have spent a few season making their way up HPDE do not pass competition/race school the first time around. NASA's program is one of the best as they have a standardized test and program throughout the country.

I think it comes down to having a realistic self-evaluation of your skill level. The traditional HPDE->School->Club Racing ladder and most MBA programs are a lot alike: everyone graduates.

The ladder is a proven method and everyone is going to advocate it because it's a very real accomplishment. (Plus, large capital investments and barriers to entry keep out the riff-raff, right?)

Either route you go, there are going to be people that are OSB, people that are ringers, and people that are mid-packers. I've seen brilliant driving in Chump and hamfisted idiots Club Racing and vice-versa.

Such as life, the traditional ladder is a lot shorter for social folks that are fun to be around. I've seen someone go from zero to comp license in 2 HPDEs, a 3-day school, and one club race weekend. I've also seen provisional comp licenses granted based on a referral and a good safety record crapcan racing alone.

I think that if you look at their business models, both HPDE and "Racing Schools" have their limits that will hold you back.

Both venues are for profit enterprises that put people on a racetrack and endevour for them to have as good an experience as possible while not getting hurt. Emphasis on "Good Time" because that will bring more referal$

What I would be looking for is competitive wheel-to-wheel seat time and some form of structured feedback. I agree that a bought seat in a lemons race could be a good starting point. Even if it is not for you, it would give you better insight into what IS right for you.

Thanks for all the input guys! I guess it's still up in the air. I've already attended a track day but it wasn't with NASA. Could you tell me what you guys mean with "what kind of learner you are"? I guess the only way I can answer the question is that within 2 sesssions, the Audi Club instructor signed me off to go solo and said there wasn't much need for him to be in the car, but I assume it's cause he just thought I was a safe-ish driver? (that seems to be the goal of HPDE)

By the end of this season, I'll probably have attended at least 5-6 weekends of HPDE and my plan was to either continue the HPDE ladder next season, or take a race school and then continue the HPDE ladder (or something along those lines).

Ryan Greener said: the Audi Club instructor signed me off to go solo and said there wasn't much need for him to be in the car, but I assume it's cause he just thought I was a safe-ish driver? (that seems to be the goal of HPDE)

Had an instructor say something similar to me when I tried track days. Only it was in the context of "Not that you are doing anything wrong from a technical point per-se, but your imagination and survival instincts are too strong, so while you dont need me in the car, don't expect to ever be a really fast driver"

I hate it when people are right. I processed that feedback and have stuck to building cars ever since!

In reply to NOHOME:

Yeah, AFAIK I don't think I was bottom of the barrel slow (as far as novice group goes, I was probably a middle of the pack kinda guy). He said I greatly improved in back to back sessions and memorized the course pretty quickly. Got a few pointbys so I think I was doing okay.

Overall, the more I think about it I guess I should just stick with the HPDE ladder until I hit a plateau.

Also, funny you talk about the builder vs driver thing. I think I'm the opposite. I'm more interested in driving than building!

NOHOME wrote:

Ryan Greener said: the Audi Club instructor signed me off to go solo and said there wasn't much need for him to be in the car, but I assume it's cause he just thought I was a safe-ish driver? (that seems to be the goal of HPDE)

"Not that you are doing anything wrong from a technical point per-se, but your imagination and survival instincts are too strong, so while you dont need me in the car, don't expect to ever be a really fast driver"

Hilarious! And after 7 years instructing, EFF that guy. I've only had one student EVER that I would call a natural. Said he had zero track experience, yet he was confident and a good listener. He either did everything I told him to the first time, or immediately knew he was off. I asked him what he did prior and he was a professional moto-x racer. After 2 sessions, I put him with someone that was a better instructor and driver than me.

A lot of truly fast people got there by being methodical and self-aware. Work.

HPDE instructors are in the car for ground rules and other peoples' safety, then you're on your own. If that guy was so damn good, he wouldn't be instructing at a club day.

You can be a really fast driver and still have rational survival instincts.

NASA will make you go through their HPDE Program before signing you off for Time Trials, then for W2W.

I do think HPDE is worth it, there's a lot to learn and process. I'd work my way up to the intermediate groups before heading off to a race school, I think you'll absorb so much more from the race school that way.

Do you have any track experience at all? If not forget about being fast and concentrate on learning as much as you can and concentrate on having fun. DON'T start your first day on the track by starting a stop watch. Fast will eventually come along. . .. Or not. And it really does not matter. The point of this is to have fun and lean proper track etiquette especially if you want to go wheel to wheel. If you happen to win a race great but I now guys that raced in SCCA and EMRA for may years and they never won a single race but they were having a lot more fun than those that were fixated on winning. Those guys looked like they were actually working or something. All stressed out getting mad at other drivers wondering who was cheating and bending the rules. (Cough cough Spec Miata Cough Cough)

Since I don't know where you are I can not point you to a local group but here in NE we have COM It is a great place to get your feet wet and see if racing is for you. As a side note it is where I started back in the early 80's.

dean1484 wrote: Do you have any track experience at all? If not forget about being fast and concentrate on learning as much as you can and concentrate on having fun. DON'T start your first day on the track by starting a stop watch. Fast will eventually come along. . .. Or not. And it really does not matter. The point of this is to have fun and lean proper track etiquette especially if you want to go wheel to wheel. If you happen to win a race great but I now guys that raced in SCCA and EMRA for may years and they never won a single race but they were having a lot more fun than those that were fixated on winning. Those guys looked like they were actually working or something. All stressed out getting mad at other drivers wondering who was cheating and bending the rules. (Cough cough Spec Miata Cough Cough) Since I don't know where you are I can not point you to a local group but here in NE we have COM It is a great place to get your feet wet and see if racing is for you. As a side note it is where I started back in the early 80's.

I have 2 track days under my belt and I am definitely focused on fundamentals over raw speed to begin with. I am not timing myself until later. Decided to just do the HPDE ladder!

At a lot of hpde events you can rent a pro driver as a coach.

Tom Long and Mike Skeen do that at VIR with Trackdaze fairly frequently.

May be a good way to get the best of both worlds.

I've gotta recommend going to a couple of autocross schools, and maybe doing some autocross events, too. I found that the fast pace and "on the edge" attitude of an autocross course really helped me with car control, and with not thinking about the slide before correcting it.

I always say, "If driving on a road course is like getting in a fight with your brother, autocross is like trying to fight your brother, except he boxes Golden Gloves for fun." Stuff just comes at you a lot faster.

snailmont5oh wrote: I've gotta recommend going to a couple of autocross schools, and maybe doing some autocross events, too. I found that the fast pace and "on the edge" attitude of an autocross course really helped me with car control, and with not thinking about the slide before correcting it. I always say, "If driving on a road course is like getting in a fight with your brother, autocross is like trying to fight your brother, except he boxes Golden Gloves for fun." Stuff just comes at you a lot faster.

Ya except go fight with you brother for two hours continuously. And see how you are doing.

I think we have had this debate in the past. Two very different disciplines using basically the same tools.

dean1484 wrote:

snailmont5oh wrote: I've gotta recommend going to a couple of autocross schools, and maybe doing some autocross events, too. I found that the fast pace and "on the edge" attitude of an autocross course really helped me with car control, and with not thinking about the slide before correcting it. I always say, "If driving on a road course is like getting in a fight with your brother, autocross is like trying to fight your brother, except he boxes Golden Gloves for fun." Stuff just comes at you a lot faster.

Ya except go fight with you brother for two hours continuously. And see how you are doing. I think we have had this debate in the past. Two very different disciplines using basically the same tools.

I'm not trying to say that autocross is better than the track. Far from it. I enjoy the track way more than autocross, which is where I started out. What I am saying is that autocross is real good for putting a finer edge on your reflexes/reactions, which makes you more capable when things don't quite go your way at the track.

snailmont5oh wrote: I've gotta recommend going to a couple of autocross schools, and maybe doing some autocross events, too. I found that the fast pace and "on the edge" attitude of an autocross course really helped me with car control, and with not thinking about the slide before correcting it. I always say, "If driving on a road course is like getting in a fight with your brother, autocross is like trying to fight your brother, except he boxes Golden Gloves for fun." Stuff just comes at you a lot faster.

Autocross is all about being able to see the path between the cones so you can be thinking two turns ahead. As a newby, you need to spend a LOT of time mastering that skill to the point where you don't even realize that you are doing it. If your intention is to road race, cone navigation is a detour. Go on the road course.

I think HPDEs are a good way to start; the buy in is low and you can quickly sort out if you are really comfortable with road racing. I've known more than one nationally competitive autocrosser felt the risk wasn't fair to the spouse and kids etc. or risk of car damage.

Total biased view as an ex-motorcycle road racer but I find bike racers seem to pick things up quicker. I'm sure this has to do with if you repeatedly do something stupid the ground comes up and smacks you in the side of the head.

As for the caliber of instructors at local track days; 4 of us have instructed professionally, 2 SCCA National champs as well as a coupe of guys who are running professional series. Yes there are some instructors who are simply keeping students between the lines but there is a bit of that at some schools as well.

Race schools are very good but as mentioned here but they aren't a good fit for everyone; A friend who was head driving instructor at a school was shocked when I managed to get one of his students up to speed. It was just a matter having them ride along in my 100hp car. Schools don't have the option of running someone around in an old Golf or Datsun.

Of course the aforementioned friend has gotten people with several HPDE events under their belt and had to fix a whole host of wacky driving habits.

Which ever way someone goes here is what I tell people to look for if the want to eventually go racing. If the instructor has you doing things like trying to make you faster rather than nailing down the fundamentals or if they are teaching you novice technique rather that tried and true fundamentals Try a different instructor.