RIP Carroll Shelby

ebonyandivory wrote: Totally serious question here: How much of the Shelby magic was Carroll himself and how much was the people he had working for him? I (maybe incorrectly) feel that he was more Paul Sr. and less Jesse James if you understand what I mean by that.

All I really know of him is his own self-promotion, his rabid use of the legal system and some E36 M3ty slick-50 commercials. He did build some cool cars back around the time I was born though. (Slapping the turbo on the Omni is not what I mean by cool).

RIP anyway even if he was the insufferable shiny happy person I suspect he may have been.

HappyAndy wrote:

Are saying that Paul Jr & Vinnie worked for Carroll?

Yes, between the years of 1966 and 1971 before either one was born. Immature sperm make the best metal-workers don't ya know!

ebonyandivory wrote: Totally serious question here: How much of the Shelby magic was Carroll himself and how much was the people he had working for him? I (maybe incorrectly) feel that he was more Paul Sr. and less Jesse James if you understand what I mean by that.

Yeah, he was a great driver and had some great ideas, but mostly he found and attracted some very talented people. However, more importantly he knew how to let those creative types work and created the environment where they flourished. He was the project manager/self promoter that Hennesey and many others wish they could be.

As a former owner of one of his most unique products, I mourn his passing.

I'm not an autograph seeker, so I just asked to shake his hand one day at Lime Rock and he seemed happy to do it. We are lucky to have shared our passion for cars with him.

My favorite Carroll Shelby quote

"We had so much compression it sounded like the beer farts on Sunday morning."

He was a visionary when it came to racing. He was one of the first to pay attention to the little known work of a fellow name of Wunibald Kamm in Germany, Kamm had a radical aero idea which eliminated the 'tail' of accepted teardrop design cars yet kept its advantages. That's where the shape of the Daytona coupe's rear came from.

He let his people work without interference, something a lot of people never learn. Yeah, he blew it a few times but don't we all? But he got results; why else would Henry Ford have picked him over Holman and Moody to go after LeMans?

Late in his life, he saw a lot of people making money off of his designs, even going so far as to use his name to do it and I guess he got pissed. I can't say as I blame him. That's where the lawsuits came from.

They don't make'm like they used to. Thanks for the inspiration and aspiration.

If most of the lawsuits were about the AC Cobra, I would have worded it like this....

Curmudgeon wrote: Late in his life, he saw a lot of people making money copying his recipe: a ford v8 in an AC Ace with fender flares. They were even going so far as to use his name to do it and I guess he got pissed. I can't say as I blame him. That's where the lawsuits came from.

He did some amazing stuff, and developed some amazing cars. The one Shelby's most famous for, though, was a big engine shoehorned into an existing little car with its fenders modified to allow bigger tires. That formula is as old as hot rodding.

Now, other cars, that's a different deal. The daytona, using the kammback, I can understand being upset about those being copied. Still, I don't know of caterham (or lotus before them) suing companies making obviously 7esque vehicles.

ddavidv wrote: And a entire population of copyright lawyers no longer have anyone to work for.

I feel sorry for the poor bastard who had to carve the name on the gravestone. Won't be long before one of the lawyers is on his back!

Used to admire the old goat until he became a brand. The spare heart he got must have been a cold one.

I am sure the lawyers and heirs will carry on just fine without him.

Glad I picked up a couple of his toys. Probably won't be able to afford them now. Price bump will most likely be temporary. Maybe we should reprint the first interview I did with him back in 1986.

Get a few beers in me at an event and I can tell some stories.

He was a colorful character. The Shelby cars that I really like are the ones that are older than me. I was never much of a fan of K cars even if they went like hell and any Mustang newer than about 1969 doesn't interest me at all, so I guess I can't say too much about how he inspired me or anything. As far as lawsuits go, I guess I never really paid attention to them since a cobra replica is not my thing either. Pretty amazing list of accomplishments - I will give him that.

I didn't click on the link - what got him anyway?

JoeyM wrote: If most of the lawsuits were about the AC Cobra, I would have worded it like this....

Curmudgeon wrote: Late in his life, he saw a lot of people making money copying his recipe: a ford v8 in an AC Ace with fender flares. They were even going so far as to use his name to do it and I guess he got pissed. I can't say as I blame him. That's where the lawsuits came from.

He did some amazing stuff, and developed some amazing cars.

I am pretty sure that He,and/ or his lawers, were making trouble for the Shelby Mustang repop parts business too. .

Tim Suddard wrote: Get a few beers in me at an event and I can tell some stories.

I can't find you at events. A friend of mine and I were looking for you guys at the last Lake Mirror show. We were loitering near the CMS GT6 just to get a chance to say hello. When the guys on the PA called repeatedly for you to come move your car, somebody else did it. That guy didn't even bother saying hello, despite the fact that I had a GRM shirt on.

In reply to JoeyM:

Shelby got wound up because others were in effect passing their work off as his, using his name and the 'Cobra' emblem etc. I can understand that. He had his own company making Cobras, his were the only cars allowed to use the 'CSX' prefix for the VIN.

From his Wiki page:

In the intervening years, Shelby had a series of ventures start and stop relating to production of 'completion' Cobras (Cobras which were allegedly built using 'left over' parts and frames). In the 1960s, the FIA required entrants (Shelby, Ford, Ferrari, etc.) to produce at least 100 cars for homologated classes of racing. Shelby simply built an insufficient number of cars and skipped a large block of Vehicle Identification Numbers, to create the illusion the company had produced large numbers of cars. Decades later in the 1990s, Carroll alleged that he had found the 'left over' frames, and began selling cars which were supposedly finally 'completed.' After it was discovered the cars were built from scratch in collaboration with McCluskey, Ltd., they were re-termed 'continuation' Cobras. The cars are still built to this day, known as the current CSX4000 series of Cobras.

Sneaky, but apparently legal. These are 'real' Cobras. That's what he was trying to proptect with all the lawsuits. Considering there could be something like 50 VINs at ~$100k apiece, it was worth his while to make the world aware there was only 1 'real' Cobra contination.

He got into a legal battle with Superformance, the people who had Peter Brock design their coupe which was a knockoff of the Daytona Coupe. The funy thing was that Brock designed the original Daytona Coupe for Shelby way back when. It was settled and the cars were sold with Shelby's name on them, telling me he made some money off each car sold.

^^^ Thanks for the clarification. It's definitely sleazy to use someone else's name on a car. That ought to be prosecuted. likewise, a unique design for a car seems like intellectual property worth defending. (...and like intellectual property, the design should have an expiration date so fanboys of your car can satisfy their lust at a much later date.)

[I still don't think the design of the cobra is unique enough to warrant lawsuits. If that's not what it was about, I have no issues.]

The man sued his own fan club for using his name!

He was always complimentary about the guys that he brought together, and the ones that made it happen. He was a born leader, and often went after the best talent available.He was also very honest about the beginning of Shelby America, having no money to speak of at the time.

The law suits, public spats, and shuck 'n jive were a part of the whole package. IMHO, his achievements as a racer, car builder and "character" pale in comparison to his philanthropic works.

JoeyM wrote: Now, other cars, that's a different deal. The daytona, using the kammback, I can understand being upset about those being copied. Still, I don't know of caterham (or lotus before them) suing companies making obviously 7esque vehicles.

Actually, Caterham sued Westfield and won. They also took on Birkin and lost. After that one, they backed off.

I don't think Shelby's been relevant for some time. Good job back in the day, too many lawsuits these days.

Though he was best known for the Cobra, it is worth remembering that he was also a hell of a racer in the 50's. There was an old paperback copy of his biography lying around my house when I was growing up in the late 70s. When I finally read it, I was enthralled by his rise through the sportscar racing ranks in the early days. Truly a colorful, original character, and very American in a gritty, self-made way.

His story really fueled my interest in racing.

RIP...

-chris r.

ebonyandivory wrote: Totally serious question here: How much of the Shelby magic was Carroll himself and how much was the people he had working for him? I (maybe incorrectly) feel that he was more Paul Sr. and less Jesse James if you understand what I mean by that.

Well, it was assembled in Dean Moons shop, Dean Moon and his staff installed the Ford V8. Dean Jeffries did the bodywork and paint.

Peter Brock designed the Daytona Coupe.

So there you have it.

Personally I think Carroll Shelby has been the source of a lot of my motivation when it comes to my "garage life". I mean the man was a mother-stinking chicken farmer and he put together a team and a car (or rather a couple cars and teams) that won the mother-stinking 24 Hours of Le Mans! (If you need an "anything is possible story"...) I'd a given my two left testicles for half a chance to have a beer with the guy.

Until some manufacturer starts hounding me for a "Bill Grow" edition of their top selling sports car, I think I'll keep my focus on the more positive aspects of his career.

Nothing more ridiculous than a bunch of neverwasbeens negatively critiquing an icon of the industry-especially when most have no clue of what they speak. The man was a legend,hit the ground running and didn't stop until the very end-enough accomplishments for ten lifetimes. RIP CS, RIP.

Shav Glick, the great automotive writer from the LA Times wrote this obit before he died in 2007. Jerry Hirsch brought the story up to date but the major contribution was Glick's. They've been waiting for ol' Shel to die for a long time.

LA Times Shelby Obituary

This sucks, Shelby was the greatest living underdog story IMO. RIP.