Saturn going away, too?

Ion had a completely different body and "3rd" doors ala RX-8 for rear-seat entry. Just how the berkeley is that "NO excuse"? Seriously?

Ion:

Cobalt:

that is too bad. Just as Saturns started looking better and bringing the astra. and I always thought the Saab 9-3 Aero was an attractive car. How far up or down in value will the SKY go???

I'm out this thread y0!

Guys, parts bin engineering has been going on a LONG time. Reference the AC Cobra. An AC body and frame with a Ford engine. That engine had a long life in other cars before Shelby shoe horned it into a small british roadster.

Rusty_Rabbit84 wrote: that is too bad. Just as Saturns started looking better and bringing the astra. and I always thought the Saab 9-3 Aero was an attractive car. How far up or down in value will the SKY go???

The G8 GXP 6 spd is a verry nice car too. GM finally realized that we will not be fooled by crappy front wheel drive slushboxes cladd in plastic body moulding.

93celicaGT2 wrote: Everyone's defense against GM has been "The Japanese do it too!!!!!"

It's not a defense.

It's to point out the difference in how we measure GM, Ford, and Chrysler to the Japanese. It's not fair to measure the US companies to a standard, and ignore that standard for the Japanese or Europeans.

That's my point.

If GM's problem is that they Badge engineer, why don't we bash Toyota for doing it, too?

If we continue to hold them to a totally different standard, GM will never have a chance.

Right now, Ford (us) are above Honda and even with Toyota in overall quality. And for powertrain controls/calibration, we are the current world leader in calibration- that's totally true data (and I wish they would supply us with websites to point it out). But I'm sure you will all claim that there's some lame reason why you wont look at a Ford, and ignore the exact same reason for Toyota and Honda.

It takes time to restore consumer confidence and change the market perception, those things don't happen overnight.

But I'm sure you will all claim that there's some lame reason why you wont look at a Ford, and ignore the exact same reason for Toyota and Honda.

Not me. I think Ford's doing a very good job of platform sharing, at least based on the Mazda 3/Volvo S40 platform I've driven. Both are very good, and both have a strong individual identity. Obviously I haven't had a chance to drive the Euro-Focus version

On top of that, the new Fords I've been in lately have been quite nice.

I think Ford's biggest problem right now is all those years they said "Have you driven a Ford lately" then showed potential buyers a Tempo or something equally miserable. Blech.

GregTivo wrote: Even worse than all of GM is the Mercury complete bandgineered lineup. Ford hasn't created a unique Mercury in decades.

I'd call the last generation Mercury Cougar sort of unique; you couldn't get a Countour coupe, and the body panels were at least sort of different. Eh.... you're right.

I actually think that, despite Mercury, Ford is a LOT better than GM. I've driven a Volvo S80, which is the same platform as the Ford Five Hundred. Both were their own cars. I didn't even know that they were related until about two months after. Same with the Mazda 6 and the Mercury Fusion. The Aura/Malibu/G6 feel exactly the same. At least the G6 could be had in a coupe or convertible.

mtn wrote: Mercury Fusion.

I'll assume you meant to say that.

Dumping Saturn?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, GM dumped Saturn the second they started wanting a hand in design and execution of Saturn vehicles. That would be around, ohhh, 1998.

Had Saturn broken off from GM (if it was even financially possible, which is probably why they never did) in 1996 or so, they would be a kick-ass company still making reliable, good-looking, Civic- and Corolla-beating vehicles.

But, that's not what happened. So skull-numbingly stupid and poorly-run a company is GM, that they killed one of the most promising brands they ever financed. Burn in hell, motherberkeleyers. I want my fraction of the taxes that financed their bailout back. That probably amounts to $0.32 or something, but I don't care. I don't trust GM to spend a penny wisely.

alfadriver wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Everyone's defense against GM has been "The Japanese do it too!!!!!"

It's not a defense. It's to point out the difference in how we measure GM, Ford, and Chrysler to the Japanese. It's not fair to measure the US companies to a standard, and ignore that standard for the Japanese or Europeans. That's my point. If GM's problem is that they Badge engineer, why don't we bash Toyota for doing it, too? If we continue to hold them to a totally different standard, GM will never have a chance. Right now, Ford (us) are above Honda and even with Toyota in overall quality. And for powertrain controls/calibration, we are the current world leader in calibration- that's totally true data (and I wish they would supply us with websites to point it out). But I'm sure you will all claim that there's some lame reason why you wont look at a Ford, and ignore the exact same reason for Toyota and Honda.

several people have said WHY they don't like GM's (or ford's, they're not innocent either) badge engineering, and all you can say is "how come you don't trash the imports for doing it too?" there is no reason to have the same entry level compact sedan sold 4 different ways.

toyota has the camry, then they have the luxury camry (ES). lexus also has several unique models. GM did get this right (like them or not) with the tahoe/yukon denali/escalade. see how you have basic, kinda nice, and top of the line? thats how the imports do it. building a basic car and selling it as a chevy, pontiac, and saturn doesn't give a buyer any reason to buy the chevy over the pontiac or saturn.

i'm sure you'll just call it "justifying" or "making excuses" but when i was looking for a car to replace my rsx, there was zero from ford that could come anywhere close to replacing it. why was it that mazda was selling a more recent version of the focus platform than ford was?

why is it so hard for a company to sell a responsive and sporty car(doesn't have to be a "sports car"), available with a manual transmission, that is practical for daily use? case in point: honda civic ex/si; accord; nissan (they offer either 6sp or cvt in everything) mazda (its not always easy, but you can get the GT version of most of their cars with a stick) bmw, MINI, SAAB, subaru used to, but they keep getting rid of wagons and dropping the manual options.

but, in the end, i bet you'll just say that i'm biased or that i don't like the domestics, but the truth is that i have driven fords most of my driving career. i put nearly 130,000 miles on a nearly trouble free F150 when i was in college. i really like the styling of the new mustang, and its great that ford is downsizing it a bit rather than letting it get more porky over the years.

Strizzo wrote: i'm sure you'll just call it "justifying" or "making excuses" but when i was looking for a car to replace my rsx, there was zero from ford that could come anywhere close to replacing it. why was it that mazda was selling a more recent version of the focus platform than ford was?

You've got a point there. When I was in the market to replace my 95 Maxima I couldn't see anything domestic luring me. Sure I checked out the GTO in 2007 but the 14 mpg city rating really turned me off. The tiny trunk sealed the deal. So, that was it. The only domestic I would consider wasn't practical enough for me. So I bought a Mazdaspeed3. If Ford was selling something hatchbacky with a decent mileage motor, and power, I would've spent my money there assuming the dealership would be willing to deal.

I do like the Mustang but I can't see owning one for daily duty. It just wouldn't work for me. I need ma' space for my junk and pets! So what's left for me? SUV's and family wagons?! I'm not that old yet.

You could argue that Ford got my money anyway through Mazda. That makes me feel a little better as I was proud of buying domestic for a long time.

Xceler8x wrote:

Strizzo wrote: i'm sure you'll just call it "justifying" or "making excuses" but when i was looking for a car to replace my rsx, there was zero from ford that could come anywhere close to replacing it. why was it that mazda was selling a more recent version of the focus platform than ford was?

You've got a point there. When I was in the market to replace my 95 Maxima I couldn't see anything domestic luring me. Sure I checked out the GTO in 2007 but the 14 mpg city rating really turned me off. The tiny trunk sealed the deal. So, that was it. The only domestic I would consider wasn't practical enough for me. So I bought a Mazdaspeed3. If Ford was selling something hatchbacky with a decent mileage motor, and power, I would've spent my money there assuming the dealership would be willing to deal. I do like the Mustang but I can't see owning one for daily duty. It just wouldn't work for me. I need ma' space for my junk and pets! So what's left for me? SUV's and family wagons?! I'm not that old yet. You could argue that Ford got my money anyway through Mazda. That makes me feel a little better as I was proud of buying domestic for a long time.

i agree on the mustang, would be great to have, but just too impractical for an only car.

unfortunately ford didnt get any of my ms3 money, i bought mine used with 5800 miles on it. the kid that traded his mazda3 for it 8 months before he traded it back in

skruffy wrote: The toyota version of the lexus IS is called the altezza, the SC was also known as the soarer, and the GS is something equally odd. Sure, none of these cars were sold in the US but they do exist.

Urm, kinda.

Sure, the Altezza, Soarer, etc, are all Toyotas outside of the US, but it's not a rebadge - Lexus only exists INSIDE the US. Toyota isn't inundating the same market with two versions of the same car hoping that they'll fool people who wouldn't buy one into buying the other (I'd never buy a GMC! Chevy 4 LIFE!).

ReverendDexter wrote:

skruffy wrote: The toyota version of the lexus IS is called the altezza, the SC was also known as the soarer, and the GS is something equally odd. Sure, none of these cars were sold in the US but they do exist.

Urm, kinda. Sure, the Altezza, Soarer, etc, are all Toyotas outside of the US, but it's not a rebadge - Lexus only exists INSIDE the US. Toyota isn't inundating the same market with two versions of the same car hoping that they'll fool people who wouldn't buy one into buying the other (I'd never buy a GMC! Chevy 4 LIFE!).

A dog wearing a wolf suit is not a wolf. A rebadge is a rebadge. GM gets E36 M3 for rebadging the Monaro and the Daewoo as GTOs and Aveos but Toyota is exempt because Lexus is only sold in the US?

I am FOR badge engineering.

I think that GM taught the world HOW to build cars by badge engineering.

Strizzo wrote: several people have said WHY they don't like GM's (or ford's, they're not innocent either) badge engineering, and all you can say is "how come you don't trash the imports for doing it too?" there is no reason to have the same entry level compact sedan sold 4 different ways.

No, they've said GM's problem was that they badge engineered. And most people say that blindly without knowing that EVERYONE does it. Somehow, that becomes yet another reason why not to buy a GM.

You don't buy a Ford since one doesn't fit you? That I can totally deal with- that is a 100% vailid reason. But saying that I'm not going to buy a large family sedan or truck from Ford since it doesn't make a sporty sedan is where I take issue- since realistically Honda and Toyota don't either.

Here's the deal- I personally drive a Miata, which isn't really a Ford at all, why? Ford doesn't make a Miata. But I don't let that stop me from looking at the sedans and crossovers (although, yes, I'm biased).

If you were in the market for a pick up, would you avoid GM since they badge engineer, or Ford since they don't match your ideal measure of a sporty car? If you say yes to either, that's my point.

BTW, people keep brining up the sporty car like it's some magical platform. Can I point out that it isn't? Check the records, but if I'm not mistaken, the Mazda 3 was VERY much outsold by the Focus. You guys are a very small part of the pie, one that most of us barely can deal with. But you are also the loudest in terms of made up complaints. Did you even DRIVE a focus? I doubt it, since you had your mind made up since it was not a C3 chassis. Not that the style matches you, but I'd be willing to bet that the car is a LOT better than you think it is.

So here it is- if you have styling or driving issues with one particular model of a car, since they may not make one- that's fine. No problem. On the other hand, if you think that the entire line up sucks for that exact same reason, that's bad- I'll put an F150 up against a Tundra or Titan any day, any where. And I think the Edge is a great vehicle.

But, no, Ford does not make a Miata- and looking at Mazda, Pontiac, and Saturn sales, I'd be hard pressed to say they even should.

Enough ranting. All I want it for you to judge the name plate equally- Toyota also does badge engineering and make 0 fun to drive cars. They also are having quality problems (like where the Tundra truck frames are rusting badly). So if you ignore GM or Ford due to the "sportines" or badge engineering, or quality to get a boring, clone, POS Toyota, that where I take issue.

Had no one else read the line "CTS Sport Wagon and Coupe"