scca autocross reorganization

Bobzilla wrote:

evildky wrote: Tire compounds are still an arms race. If you show up for a "Street Tire" class with regular all season street tires you can NOT compete!

REally? They don't even let you register? Huh.... must have missed that lecture. I've watched guys go out on winter tires (Nokians actually) on a Miata and win the local class in ES. Well, I guess that still makes your theory true because he wasn't technically on all-seasons. Look, the people that are serious and playing on a National level are still going to beat your ass. Period. I've had those people beat me in my own damn car by 2+ seconds in the past. So don't tell me it's all about what tires are on the car yadda yadda yadda. The people that are bitching are the people that will find a reason to bitch about getting a free car, holding the winning mega-millions lotto ticket and a handy from Angelina Jolie all happening at the same time.

I know all drivers are not created equal. I run Z2's on my ES miata. People tend to equate the "street tire" rule with not needing purpose built tires. While the best guys might be faster than me on true all seasons, I'm a lot faster on my "street tires" than I am on all seasons. My current "street Tires" aren't much slower than the "R Comps" they replaced. So unless you are one of the very talented few you still need purpose built tires to compete.

They should start allowing some foreign cars like Canada autcross does.

In reply to evildky:

again, they won't let you compete without specific tires? What kind of region do you run in?

What do you want, everyone to run 600+TW tires? Snow tires? Would that make it better for you? IF you really think the tires are what is keeping you back you probably need more time in the seat working on the driver mod. The fast people will always be fast. Period. You can either listen/learn/practice to become better/faster, or you can whine about tires, or springs or [insert stupid reason for your slowness here].

I'm slow because, well, I'm slow. I've seen that the car can be faster. I'm just not it. I AM getting better, and hell I'm shooting for the last trophy spot at Nats in my DD ST car. Do I honestly think I'll get it? berkeley no. I'm realistic in my expectations and know my limitations (I suck). Doesn't mean I'm not going to try my hardest.

You know, I started this stupid sport chasing STS Civics (pre-ST, STC) in my 2900lb, 120whp Elantra with crap suspension and used-to-be-top-tier tires. I was 5-6 seconds off the mark. I can tell you I didn't blame the tires.

kanaric wrote: They should start allowing some foreign cars like Canada autcross does.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Most cars at an autocross are "foreign".

In reply to evildky:

Still, the gap is more the driver now. Makes me wish I had never sold my GS Ion Redline. That thing was fast on Z1's(note, an otherwise stock car daily driven 3/4ths of the year for 3 years) but aside from one instance, it never could match cars with r-comps. And I wasn't about to shell out the coin for a third set of wheels/tires that would have to be carried and installed at every event.

And I started in HS with my '01 fukus back in 03-04 on 400TW all seasons. It was reasonably competitive locally. I still swear it was only decentish due to the autotradgic topping 1st at 40+.

Bringing true street tires into 'stock' is a great idea. We ran a regional street class for years here in the Detroit region and it worked very well under similar rules.

I really like CAM, but I thinks it needs some tweeks for next year. A cut off at 1990 would make sense with allowances for 'carry-over' cars. 82-92 F-body, Fox Mustangs to 1993, Corvette thru 1991 (no LT1/ZR1).

Seems like 1/2 the cars that show up are 2000 something Mustangs. I understand you put a lot of work into it, but it doesn't fit the spirit of the class. There are better spots for you.

KyAllroad said: Oh, you CAN daily a competitive ST car. But with no AC, PS, radio, and 700 lb springs would you want to? And in street my Miata has to ride on stock springs (wet noodle city).

AC cannot be deleted in ST.
PS cannot be deleted in ST.
Radio cannot be deleted in ST.
You got me on the 700# springs though.

Gearheadotaku wrote: I really like CAM, but I thinks it needs some tweeks for next year. A cut off at 1990 would make sense with allowances for 'carry-over' cars. 82-92 F-body, Fox Mustangs to 1993, Corvette thru 1991 (no LT1/ZR1). Seems like 1/2 the cars that show up are 2000 something Mustangs. I understand you put a lot of work into it, but it doesn't fit the spirit of the class. There are better spots for you.

As one of the people who had a hand in creating CAM (I wrote the rules that SCCA used as the basis for CAM) I can't disagree with you more on model year cut-offs and "sprit of the rules". The whole point of CAM is to attract musclecar people who have embraced the whole Pro-Touring movement. Doesn't matter the year of the car, just the spirit of making muscle cars work the best they can. Look at all the other bodies that put on Pro-Touring events and almost none of them have model year restrictions. The only exception is Goodguy's Rod and Custom Association and they're beginning to move away from the model year restriction model. More of their shows are being open to all years of American cars. The late model cars are important to CAM and to the Pro-Touring movement as a benchmark for the guys building vintage cars.

The current rules in CAM are working fine, the class is doing what SCCA wants it to do which is bring new blood to SCCA Solo events. CAM here has become our largest class. We're averaging 15 entries per event and it is a mix of new, newer, and vintage iron. The competition in the class is TIGHT! The average margin of victory is .077 sec with an average spread of a little over 5 seconds for the entire class. It's a blast to be a part of!

DILYSI Dave wrote: AC cannot be deleted in ST. PS cannot be deleted in ST. Radio cannot be deleted in ST. You got me on the 700# springs though.

True, but depending on the class, there may be some crazy stripper model that has a (slight) legitimate advantage that lacks some amenities. See STS (Miata R package with a non-LSD swapped in) or STR (S2000 CR).

But, yes, ST cars very much can be nationally competitive and daily driven. I know of many daily driven ST cars that are good enough to trophy at nationals.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

KyAllroad said: Oh, you CAN daily a competitive ST car. But with no AC, PS, radio, and 700 lb springs would you want to? And in street my Miata has to ride on stock springs (wet noodle city).

AC cannot be deleted in ST. PS cannot be deleted in ST. Radio cannot be deleted in ST. You got me on the 700# springs though.

can't they be deleted if the car was available without ?

I know my CRX Si can't have the sunroof deleted … all Si's came with sunroofs

Bobzilla wrote: In reply to evildky: again, they won't let you compete without specific tires? What kind of region do you run in?

I think he meant you will not be competitive without the right tires and not that they will actually prevent you from participating.

In reply to wbjones:

Yes, options can be deleted if the car was available without them, but that's a Street class option conversion, not a Street Touring removal allowance.

In reality, VERY few cars can get rid of any of those. The EF can get rid of AC and Radio, as both were dealer installed options, but it's one of the oldest cars in the class and very much not representative of reality.

In reply to mtownneon:

IMHO, the way to keep CAM 'fun' is to NEVER make it a Nationals trophy/jacket class. That 'should' help to keep a lot of win-at-all-costs autocross types away. And/or keep the PAX artificially high.

In reply to Ian F:

Yeah, I never thought about it, but that's kinda true. If there were just an entry-level class that you could run in with minimal prep, that didn't have any national trophy/jacket, you would probably keep things from getting too crazy.

As it stands, people are still going to be spending huge amounts of money on shocks, wheels, tires, etc if they can afford it, even after the rules change in 'stock' class.

In reply to DILYSI Dave: You beat me to it about the ST rules.

In reply to JohnyHachi6:

If I'm remembering my Solo history right, that's basically what happened with Street Touring. It started out as a way to attract the "tuner" crowd and did ok for awhile; things were pretty lax and you could have fun. Then they made it a jacket class and the serious guys started building class-specific cars (trailer queens) for chasing soft PAX numbers and easy wins. Then one ST class became STS and STX and STU and then STR, STC, & STF and sanity went out the berking window...

CAM will be a little different since by nature Pro Touring cars tend to be weekend toys and far from cheap to build, but the danger is there to take the 'fun' out of it. If someone decides they really love chasing cones and wants to get serious, there are plenty of other classes to build a car for.

DILYSI Dave wrote: In reply to wbjones: Yes, options can be deleted if the car was available without them, but that's a Street class option conversion, not a Street Touring removal allowance. In reality, VERY few cars can get rid of any of those. The EF can get rid of AC and Radio, as both were dealer installed options, but it's one of the oldest cars in the class and very much not representative of reality.

wasn't asking for the newer cars … was sorta wondering about something like my '91 CRX Si …. I would love to be able to remove the sunroof … but all Si's had sunroofs

Ian F wrote: In reply to JohnyHachi6: CAM will be a little different since by nature Pro Touring cars tend to be weekend toys and far from cheap to build, but the danger is there to take the 'fun' out of it. If someone decides they really love chasing cones and wants to get serious, there are plenty of other classes to build a car for.

I'm running my Challenge car in CAM, and having a ball!

In reply to Ian F:

Yeah, I think you're right that CAM is a little different. I was mostly talking about the stock class shakeup.

Bobzilla wrote: In reply to evildky: again, they won't let you compete without specific tires? What kind of region do you run in? What do you want, everyone to run 600+TW tires? Snow tires? Would that make it better for you? IF you really think the tires are what is keeping you back you probably need more time in the seat working on the driver mod. The fast people will always be fast. Period. You can either listen/learn/practice to become better/faster, or you can whine about tires, or springs or [insert stupid reason for your slowness here]. I'm slow because, well, I'm slow. I've seen that the car can be faster. I'm just not it. I AM getting better, and hell I'm shooting for the last trophy spot at Nats in my DD ST car. Do I honestly think I'll get it? berkeley no. I'm realistic in my expectations and know my limitations (I suck). Doesn't mean I'm not going to try my hardest. You know, I started this stupid sport chasing STS Civics (pre-ST, STC) in my 2900lb, 120whp Elantra with crap suspension and used-to-be-top-tier tires. I was 5-6 seconds off the mark. I can tell you I didn't blame the tires.

Is everything I say taken as being completely literal? I notice you are from Indiana so I'll type slow My region (KYSCCA) does in fact allow tires of higher treadwear, I choose not to run higher UTQ tires. I do not want anyone to run 600 utq tires (but who am I to impose my will upon the masses). I do not want anyone to run snow tires (good choice for snow, bad choice for autocross). My tires are not keeping me back from anything.

A car with the "right" tires will be faster than a car with the "wrong" tire, all other variables being constant. The magazine whose website we are currently posting to (GRM) has tests where in they try to nail down the "right" tire from a small selection of "right" tires. When I say "right" tires I mean correct, not the right side of the vehicle (for the record, I recommend you run matching tires on the left and right). If you feel that all tires are created equal I recommend you shoot for that STS trophy on a set of Kumho Ecsta PA31's, Kumho has earned some national titles with their other tires why not try this one?

I am making no complaint about how the tire rule affects me directly. I do certainly have much improving to do as a driver. I blame no one and nothing for my slowness. I have yet to make it to a nationals. Perhaps this is the year I become an "also ran". If I do make it to nats and have Robert Johnson and countless other pummel me in ES, it will not be because I have the wrong tires. As a matter of fact at last check Robert and I have the same tires. Somehow I doubt anyone will be running the Kumho Ecsta PA31's in ES but Robert could probably beat me on them. How many of those fast "Street tire" cars at nationals are running the tires they came from the factory with? How many of them are taking home trophies?

I believe - just going out on a limb here - that ya'll missed Bob's point a little.

wbjones said: wasn't asking for the newer cars … was sorta wondering about something like my '91 CRX Si …. I would love to be able to remove the sunroof … but all Si's had sunroofs

If you want the Si, yeah - you're stuck with the sunroof. You could run a DX and get no sunroof, but then you're also missing ~20HP.

Duke wrote: I believe - just going out on a limb here - that ya'll missed Bob's point a little.

Gee... ya think?

My apologies Bob, with the repeated focus on the semantics and drivers skill, I felt my point was missed as well.

The semantics were sarcasm, the drivers skill IS the point of auto-x. I don't care what tires mediocre drivers like us are on, the good guys can have crap and still win. That's the whole point. Blaming tires isn't the problem nor the solution.