SCCA Rallycross East Coast Championships

ProDarwin wrote: I hope not. THSCC has very relaxed rules, many of which are large safety concerns for me. If I were in charge, there would be absolutely zero change of a UTV/ATV being allowed on course. I've also seen THSCC allow a Miata w/o a hardtop on course as well. I was shocked by this. Actually, doubly shocked because this was at VIR and I though they would take issue with it also. I'm very surprised that NASA has rules for the ATV/UTV.

I think NRS does it mostly because they're popular up north and in CARS and other Canadian series. At NRS I think they can only run at events that have no transits on public roads (since most states don't permit UTVs to be street tagged, maybe Canada does), so it's a nonstarter for many stage rallies. Remember, NRS also allows moto-rally (but of course, moto-rally bikes are street-legal).

I personally would prefer they not be allowed at rallycross since it opens the door to all kinds of crazy stuff like sand rails, silvercars, crosskarts, etc. That said, it would probably help turnout in some of the smaller and more rural rallycross clubs, so who knows. I know there are also safety/insurance concerns that SCCA has been looking at, not sure how those have been or will be mitigated. Time will tell. I'd prefer to keep RallyCross oriented toward production cars only. If there is such a huge demand for UTV/ATV/crosskart racing out there, I'm sure they could just set up their own series using similar facilities. I think the actual interest is highly localized from what I've seen...

As to THSCC....yeah, I've heard enough sketchy things about they way they run their events (especially safety) that I'm less interested in going to the VIR events than I previously was, even though I hear it's a pretty good venue. Of course, if I want to go to an event with "relaxed" safety standards and low organization....well, Beltway Rallysport (formerly Bolivian Rallysprint) here in DC has that (and really, really good food!!)

There are a few states like AZ where you can tag UTVs. I would think safety wise they would be ok since they have cages etc the rally rules etc all require full doors, window nets, 5pt harness etc. You are right that there are other opportunities for them to race and I think it is somewhat localized on areas that already tend to have people who own them. (I don't imagine a ton of toy haulers and side by sides in the DC area vs out in California/Arizona they are all over)

On the crosscart side of things, it looks like there might be a provisional rallycross class coming soon that allows tube chassis with fairly limited engine options.

From a safety perspective, I have 3 concerns with a UTV.

A) Their center of gravity does not appear to be that low compared with width. Rollover scares me. b) In the case of a rollover, they have no roof. What happens if you roll over into a huge puddle, or mud? You sink right through it. Not good for the driver. C) Also in the case of rollover, due to no roof/doors/etc, there would certainly be a need for wrist restraints so you don't break your arms/hands.

RE: THSCC/VIR

Yeah, its a shame. VIR is a great course. Reminds me of summit, but just a little bit longer and a little bit faster. But the safety at that event is almost non existent. I've expressed my concerns to the organizers several times, and they don't seem to care much about it. I will certainly stop myself if I feel I'm putting myself or anyone else in danger, but a lot of the members don't have nearly as much experience. I hope some other experienced members speak up in the future.

Never having done rallycross, but running with tarheel for hpde and autocross, i can say that side of the house is VERY well organized and safety conscious.

As far as rollover risk, some of that comes down to course design. There are some courses where anything even remotely high CoG is a rollover risk, others where you're not gonna roll unless you're very ham-fisted and also make a bad screwup.

The SCCA region I usually rallycross with generally allows stock-height SUVs and pickups provided the driver doesn't seem to be an idiot and the thing appears to be able to make it around the course safely. If things start to look any bit sketchy, they'll pull the plug. And on reasonably flat, packed dirt / gravel / cinders mix, I've had the Jeep pretty far sideways at 50+ mph without things feeling or looking sketchy, so...

rslifkin wrote: And on reasonably flat, packed dirt / gravel / cinders mix, I've had the Jeep pretty far sideways at 50+ mph without things feeling or looking sketchy, so...

That's not where you have to worry about roll overs. It's grippy low speed corners where you're asking a lot of the front tires.

Think about driving 25-30mph down your side street then turning into your driveway without slowing down or touching grass or curb. That's a typical tight rallycross corner.

Knurled wrote: That's not where you have to worry about roll overs. It's grippy low speed corners where you're asking a lot of the front tires. Think about driving 25-30mph down your side street then turning into your driveway without slowing down or touching grass or curb. That's a typical tight rallycross corner.

Yeah, tight corners when things get rutted is a concern. But that's where a little bit of sane driving can come in handy. Make an effort to pick lines that don't leave you sliding into ruts and you gain a lot more room for mistakes before risking a rollover. The terrain the course is laid out on makes a difference too. Off camber turns greatly increase rollover risk, for example.

There's some videos of the kind of courses I've run the Jeep on here: https://www.youtube.com/user/comptiger5000/videos

Standard "woods" type setup for UTV's all mandate metal roof, full doors, window nets or arm straps, and 5 pt harnesses. In terms of the center of gravity I think you would be surprised. They are taller (about 80inches) than they are wide usually (stock is 60 or so on a model you would see out east vs the desert ones with longer travel) but the engine and everything is mounted essentially between and behind the lower part of the driver and passenger seats with a dry weight of only about 1200lbs.

I've seen some roll/2 wheel on a rutted corner in a GNCC race but I would think those course are a lot rougher than anything rallycross throws at you? And a lot of time that seemed also do to contact.

Will be interesting to see. I have seen so many crosskart type things come and go that never took off for entry level accessibility to off road sports (besides MX)

irish44j wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

Jaynen wrote: I'll look for the bentra this Sunday then would be nice to meet some folks. I'm wondering if rallyx will be more appealing than autox but I've done a lot more autox

You'll have fun, no doubt. Both of them are tons of fun in similar ways, but the event operation and competitors in rallyx are vastly different. Especially the region you are talking about. To word that another way, if you took all the autox organizers and competitors from a big, well run SCCA region and ran a rallyx event with those same people, you'd have a really kickass event. That doesn't happen though. WDCR is probably as close as it gets in that regard.

Having run with a number of east-coast rallycross groups, I'd certainly say that WDCR events run the most efficiently and with the least "issues" - probably due to both experience and the fact that several of the people who run the show area also autocrossers. Some rally-x regions are so slack it's frustrating. That said, I'd still rather run with a fairly slack rally-x group than with the most efficient and well-run autocross group. I autocrossed for close to a decade and to be honest, the occasional time I go do it these days I find it terribly boring (YMMV). Rally-x you get more seat time (in most cases), do more fun things with the car, and when you're working course it is infinitely more interesting than watching autocross runs. None of that is to say you can't do both with the same car, of course. Do both, decide for yourself.

My region is mostly all auto-x. While there is some interest in Rally-X and sites could probably be had w/ all the land around the big hold back appears to be organizing and operations.

So, what does it take to start a Rally-X from the ground up?

fasted58 wrote: My region is mostly all auto-x. While there is some interest in Rally-X and sites could probably be had w/ all the land around the big hold back appears to be organizing and operations. So, what does it take to start a Rally-X from the ground up?

Where are you located?

Jim Rowland did a good presentation at the national convention? in 2016 about starting a rallyx program and has a website to go with it.
Web version

Presentation

Website

Here's my conspiracy theory about the "new class" that is rumored for next year:

1) I know for a fact that it isn't for crosskarts or UTVs. One of our locals is on the board and said exactly that, and that the new class will use 4-cyl NA automotive engines and need an SCCA logbook.

2) The new BoD chairman for SCCA is Lee Hill. Lee Hill has spent the last 20 years racing Spec Racer Ford series, so he clearly likes the "spec" series setup. SRF cars are made by (and bought from) SCCA Enterprises (presumably making money for SCCA). I'm thinking that SCCA has another budget-oriented rally-type "spec" design vehicle (perhaps using the same drivetrain as SRF?) in the works and it will be the vehicle eligible to run the new class for rallycross (and rally trials/rallysprint).

SCCA in this manner would be able to limit the car to a "safe" standard for these events, would make some profit on the sale of these vehicles, and would create an actual spec series within rallyX/sprint for those who just want to prove their driving and not their car-building skills.

IDK if any of this is the least bit correct, but now that I say it out loud, it sure sounds like a good idea from SCCA's standpoint ;)

Kind of like the dwarf/legends car stuff also.

The Rallycross Jr league car whatever they are called are just way too expensive. The question would be how cheaply could they build a spec racer it has to be comparable to the cost of building/maintaining the list of the usual rallycross suspects.

However I think in generally RallyX sees lower participation than autox/optima challenge/hpde stuff etc.

Out of curiosity how much land do you think it takes for a decent rallycross course setup?

Jaynen wrote: Kind of like the dwarf/legends car stuff also. The Rallycross Jr league car whatever they are called are just way too expensive. The question would be how cheaply could they build a spec racer it has to be comparable to the cost of building/maintaining the list of the usual rallycross suspects. However I think in generally RallyX sees lower participation than autox/optima challenge/hpde stuff etc. Out of curiosity how much land do you think it takes for a decent rallycross course setup?

tough question. depends on the surface (grass, gravel, dirt, etc), propensity to get dusty, proximity to trees or other obstacles, and terrain. We run fairly large courses here in DC, and have at all three of our venues in the 6 years I've been doing it. Also because we like high speed courses (our courses basically are as fast as SCCA allows). Our current venue's typical course in in a field that is roughly 500' by 600' in total size (so, about 7 acres). I've run at places with larger areas (our old Frostburg venue had a usable area closer to 20 acres, all gravel, so we had high-speed courses). Other places are smaller. I'd say offhand that 4-5 acres in a square is probably close to the minimum that you could actually build a fast, fun course in (remembering that ther has to be a buffer area between trees, ditches, etc and that you need an area for grid and parking (so, another couple of acres).

I think SCCA has an official "rallycross package" for prospective venues that lays out the requirements.

If you want conspiracy theory, I think they want to make a rear drive class that won't be dominated by Miatas.

Knurled wrote: If you want conspiracy theory, I think they want to make a rear drive class that won't be dominated by Miatas.

We can let Miatas have rallycross bragging rights so they don't feel so bad about never being able to move up to stage rally like all the other RWD class cars can. Oh, and also, that thing about hairdressers

EDIT: just for clarity, I am just ragging on Pete because I know his take on rallycross vs. rally and want to push his buttons. I love rallycross and certainly am not denigrating it...

Also, just getting my remaining trash-talking done before England Jr. whips me in 2 weeks and in an effort to get Evan to come to the event!

Log booked miata ;)

Lof8 wrote: Log booked miata ;)

Hah, I knew as soon as I wrote that, that someone would post the Black Flag guys . Pretty sure it is not legal for RA, ARA, CARS, or (not sure) even SCCA rallysprints though. Just NASA at this point. I could be mistaken, though.

I still haven't figured out how the hell they fit all their spares and gear in there.

irish44j wrote: I think SCCA has an official "rallycross package" for prospective venues that lays out the requirements.

And it even has a Miata on the cover.

EvanB wrote:

irish44j wrote: I think SCCA has an official "rallycross package" for prospective venues that lays out the requirements.

And it even has a Miata on the cover.

clearly trying to increase female participation

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: If you want conspiracy theory, I think they want to make a rear drive class that won't be dominated by Miatas.

rallycross bragging rights so they don't feel so bad about never being able to move "up to" stage rally like all the other RWD class cars can.

Urge to rant... rising...

new class should be for ITA class club racers. Those would make for a closely contested and potentially crowded rallycross field.

For those who don't know - my take on saying rallycross is the lite version of stage rally is exactly like my take that rear wheel drive is what you drive before you get a real car with AWD.

It's complete and utter BS, of course. I drive RWD because it's a lot more fun than AWD, just like I prefer rallycross because any rallycross course is way more fun to drive than any road could ever be. Roads are just plain boring. It's all speed and few corners. When I want to do that, the local dragstrip is $12 a night, and I won't get excommunicated from competiton because my co-driver didn't hold his pinky out when he signed some arcane form while the car was in a certain zone or something.

Knurled wrote:

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: If you want conspiracy theory, I think they want to make a rear drive class that won't be dominated by Miatas.

rallycross bragging rights so they don't feel so bad about never being able to move "up to" stage rally like all the other RWD class cars can.

Urge to rant... rising...

I only said that to rib you. I don't actually think that. If I actually thought that, I wouldn't still be going to every possible rallycross event in this region...

stage and rallycross are two completely different animals that have some overlapping elements (much like autocross vs. road racing).

I was really just trying to take a dig at Miatas because the "well my trunk can fit five rally tires" just didn't have the same bite

Trufax: My next rallycross car will have subwoofers, since I have a trailer to carry tires now.

With bluetooth connectivity, I will be able to bump tha bass on course without annoying CD skippage!

(Reality: I had one of my rallycross videos get blocked by YouTube because of copyrighted content. It was when I was driving Evan's 2.5RS at Nationals a couple years ago and he had Daft Punk loaded in an iPod or something. YouTube recognized it and gave me a peepee-whack)