In reply to ShawnG :
That isn't normal now, either.
In reply to ShawnG :
That isn't normal now, either.
In reply to kb58 :I agree it certainly is not going to be easy. Adjustments will need to be made. But if it means we are moving in the right direction it is worth it
It probably highly unlikely the current rates against China will last any long term, but it also seems very likely something will remain. I suspect even a mutual zero tariff situation would not be accepted (destroying the re-shoring concept) but you never know.
Tool makers, and others, have been moving out of China already (because of the past tariffs and likely the suspicion of more to come). Vietnam has become rather popular and of course there is Taiwan. It seems likely Vietnam and Taiwan will end up with decent deals though they will probably still have something to encourage re-shoring. (The absurd rate given to Vietnam, because of the trade imbalance had to cause a view minor heart attacks!)
I am also suspicious as to who actually owns those factories in Vietnam...
Regarding the US made Apple phones: That has another likely affect also. Since Apple has a rather ridiculous profit margin on their products, that would likely have to shrink to have any kind of affordable product. That will not impress the shareholders, which will almost certainly hurt it's stock price, and Apple is a very large part of some indicies. So, prepare for a bit more of a market dive (maybe to a more realistic level?) eventually.
ShawnG said:40 years ago, 2 cars in the garage, a boat, an RV and a motorcycle plus a vacation to somewhere sunny every year wasn't "normal"
People have become accustomed to cheap luxury now.
Truf.
My grandparents had one vehicle, a rusty Chevy Van. They sold that for a not-so-rusty 1980 Ford Econoline that was 8 years old. My grandpa briefly had a Plymouth Reliant he used for commuting, as base as you could get. Didn't even have a radio.
No elaborate vacations, no boat, no RV, no motorcycle.
My wife and I have 3 cars bought in the last 4 years, all paid for in cash, with a cumulative purchase price over over $175k. I have bicycles that cost more than my parents first house.
As a tinkerer/shade tree mechanic, the box I keep my tools in cost 1/2 what my parents paid for the house I grew up in. Think about that for a minute... a 72" x 29" x 44" metal box painted in beautiful Snap On Ultra Yellow is 1/2 the cost of an house in western Wisconsin in the mid 80s.
We got it good. People just like to bitch.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
I might suggest YOU have it good,not everyone has that luxury.
I would also suggest in the big picture the cost of your toolbox is part of the problem.
China has already indicated they aren't going to negotiate,they'll stop sending their products along with buying nothing from the states.
Good luck figuring out how to make affordable anything anytime soon on your own.
You've already seen the multi billion dollar tourism economy collapse in short order.
We had planned a motorcycle trip thru Maine/Vermont etc,now we're staying out and doing 2 trips in my own Country.
Fewer goods coming in and fewer outside people willing to visit with cash to toss around,yep you'll continue to have it good for sure.
ShawnG said:40 years ago, 2 cars in the garage, a boat, an RV and a motorcycle plus a vacation to somewhere sunny every year wasn't "normal"
People have become accustomed to cheap luxury now.
It was for people with a college education. 1985ish was still a time when a degree almost surely guaranteed that.
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:ShawnG said:40 years ago, 2 cars in the garage, a boat, an RV and a motorcycle plus a vacation to somewhere sunny every year wasn't "normal"
People have become accustomed to cheap luxury now.
It was for people with a college education. 1985ish was still a time when a degree almost surely guaranteed that.
I'm sure this is just a coincidence, right?
Getting back to the original question : "how to get cheap stuff."
So question for those that might know.
As a US citizen, you can bring back $800 USD of goods when returning from Canada. Does that exemption include the tariffs that are newly created?
If the tariff IS included in your exemption, then all you need to do is drive over for a weekend, stay with the wife and kids and hit the local Princess Auto for cheap tools. Your dollar is still 30% ahead of the Canadian dollar so things are a bargain no matter where you shop. If you don't need a bunch of chinese tools, maybe the wife wants to buy cheap stuff at outlet malls along the border and get an inexpensive restaurant meal.
Would it be possible to order stuff on line, have it shipped to a drop-box in Canada and then return after a visit while avoiding any duties or tariffs? Kinda like what Canadians used to do when they would order stuff from the States? I imagine the same could be done at the Mexican border just as profitably.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to kb58 :
Without going too much into a rant, business managers have been riding a wave for the past 40 or so years of outsourcing production to drive costs down so that the general masses don't realize how much less and less money they are making compared to their parents. Minimum wage today is like a quarter of what it was in the late 60s adjusted for inflation, people accepted this as long as they can get their six-pack of shirts for two or three hours' work.
All this is, is the persistent driving down of wages with "bread and circuses" to keep people complacent starting to come home to roost.
Making more things in the US *will* make things cost more, but wages will also have to increase for business owners to compete with other companies in order to lure labor to their own company.
It's not as bad as a quarter but it has been worse than stagnant for a long time, plus official inflation measures pretend that housing and education costs aren't a thing...otherwise correct though. We can't fly deeper into the "stagnant wages paying for dirt-cheap goods made by increasingly offshored labor" coffin corner that enables runaway corporate profit growth forever.
Regarding the Us made iPhone, SNL's weekend update hand a killer line on it--
"It'll cost $3500, but don't worry-- your kid will get the employee discount!"
NOHOME said:Getting back to the original question : "how to get cheap stuff."
So question for those that might know.
As a US citizen, you can bring back $800 USD of goods when returning from Canada. Does that exemption include the tariffs that are newly created?
If the tariff IS included in your exemption, then all you need to do is drive over for a weekend, stay with the wife and kids and hit the local Princess Auto for cheap tools. Your dollar is still 30% ahead of the Canadian dollar so things are a bargain no matter where you shop. If you don't need a bunch of chinese tools, maybe the wife wants to buy cheap stuff at outlet malls along the border and get an inexpensive restaurant meal.
Would it be possible to order stuff on line, have it shipped to a drop-box in Canada and then return after a visit while avoiding any duties or tariffs? Kinda like what Canadians used to do when they would order stuff from the States? I imagine the same could be done at the Mexican border just as profitably.
Seems pretty hypocritical to tariff Canada and China, but then go to Canada to bring back Chinese stuff.....
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:ShawnG said:40 years ago, 2 cars in the garage, a boat, an RV and a motorcycle plus a vacation to somewhere sunny every year wasn't "normal"
People have become accustomed to cheap luxury now.
It was for people with a college education. 1985ish was still a time when a degree almost surely guaranteed that.
My grandfather was able to retire in the 1970s with a pension that my grandmother benefited from until her death ten years ago. New car every one or two years until 1983 when he bought his Mark VII and called that one a keeper, raised five daughters and sent some to college, the works. He didn't have a college education but he worked as a weldor for a truck company and was able to do this thanks to a three letter trade union.
(Euclid trucks, BTW)
In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :
93gsxturbo said:ShawnG said:40 years ago, 2 cars in the garage, a boat, an RV and a motorcycle plus a vacation to somewhere sunny every year wasn't "normal"
People have become accustomed to cheap luxury now.
Truf.
...
We got it good. People just like to bitch.
Extrapolating further...reading literally any history book will make you appreciate the time we live in. We got it pretty damn good, regardless of whichever clown is running the circus.
The things that have gotten cheaper in the last 25 years have all been things that have been outsourced to places with cheaper labor, and will be heavily impacted by tariffs. The things needed to build/maintain a better life have exploded in cost. Middle class continues to get squeezed.
Can't change any of that on an individual level, so I'm just going to appreciate what I do have while I try to live an efficient life. Look for any deals that come up, and keep digging to build a better life for my family in whatever way I can.
Change is inevitable. Constant change is bad for business. Set the tariffs wherever you want, let the dust settle and business will find a way to deliver your cheap goods.
Before China it was Japan. If China gets too expensive, it will be somewhere like Bangladesh or Uganda. Cheap goods are almost the USA version of bread and circuses.
Personally, I don't have a problem with reciprocal tariffs or tariffs against countries that are not friends of the USA. The world trade has been one-sided for a long time. The US trade deficit was $1.2T last year. Almost $300b of that was to China. I have to wonder if that is sustainable without printing money.
The current HMFIC seems to be using the tariffs to drive people to the table to talk. Talk is good. We may end up with 0-0 with most countries.
It's going to cause some pain at the register until things settle out. Cheap tools may be a thing of the past but I doubt it. I stopped buying cheap no-name auto parts years ago due to failures.
The last auto part I bought was an alternator for the Mustang. It was a Motorcraft GL997. It was made in the USA. It was around $100 more than the spray paint rebuild from Cardone but I won't have to replace it next year.
In reply to Toyman! :
Talk is good 100%,insulting a country,its leaders,its people and threatening to annex them then adding tariffs prior to those talks is not how deals get done however.
I don't get the obsession with manufacturing vs. services. If a person once worked in manufacturing and now they work in a trade (where more people are urgently needed!), etc. and the manufactured things they buy are now cheaper/better, why is that bad? Change happens.
I work in IT. Employment in say my last four roles have declined as technology has changed and wages in those roles declined. As the jobs became less valuable, they became more outsourced. If I didn't change, I'd be paid less and have trouble finding jobs. Why do we think people must do what they did in the 1970s? Isn't it better that Americans do higher value jobs, or jobs that make use of their unique skills?
US manufacturing output has been level, but the rest of the economy has grown. Automation has meant that far fewer people are needed than in the past. Outsourcing took a far smaller portion of jobs, but cheaper goods means consumers also have more money to spend on higher value, higher margin domestic services. Margins and value correspond to higher worker pay.
Look at US GDP per capital vs. any other advanced economy over the last 30 years. It's shocking how much butt the US has kicked.
I'm interested in any other suggestions on how to get other countries to reduce/eliminate their tariffs on US products without raising US tariffs on their products, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.
stroker said:I'm interested in any other suggestions on how to get other countries to reduce/eliminate their tariffs on US products without raising US tariffs on their products, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.
I believe there was a study by the America enterprise institute which suggested that tariffs and non tariff barriers put US #68th in the world in terms of "free trade." Advanced economies have a 3% average tariff. Is the goal to reduce that? I don't think it is. One cannot solve a problem if they don't agree on what the problem even is.
I think other advanced economies would be very happy to work together to mutually reduce trade barriers. Most of them are still pursuing free trade agreements with others. Being hostile doesn't build partnerships...
stroker said:I'm interested in any other suggestions on how to get other countries to reduce/eliminate their tariffs on US products without raising US tariffs on their products, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.
The US and China are enormous in terms of both economic output and population. You all can crush any other country in the world at your leisure through over production. It only stands to reason that other countries need to protect themselves to some degree. The current (could change next week of course) explanation for tariffs is to balance trade. To take the obvious Canadian example, the US is applying a tariff to cars and car parts manufactured here. But to balance trade in vehicles I would have to buy 10 cars for everyone an American buys because we are 10% of your population. Obviously that trade will never be balanced. And to take third world examples, most of those poor countries have higher tariffs but very low average incomes. So how can you balance trade with a country like Cameroon or Gabon when the average consumer makes 60 or $80 a month? They should buy more American cars?
I was watching a show a couple of weeks ago and a woman was going through a market in Iraq. Most of the vendors were selling handmade rugs and pots and pans and that kind of thing. That is how they made their living and I don't expect that they had too many options to make a better or different living. But the guide said many of them are disappearing and losing their only livelihood because of the crush of cheap imports from China. Of course a sweatshop in Guangdong can make a decent looking pan on a press and ship it to Baghdad and sell it for a fraction of what that illiterate shop owner can make and sell one for.
To a great extent the big world economies can set the rules but not to the point that they are destroying other economies. I think earlier administrations recognized this but currently the train of thought seems to be America first second and third. There is no longer any consideration for what impact a 28 trillion dollar gdp can have on a country who's total output is a fraction of one US state.
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
I can't disagree with you on that point.
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:Seems pretty hypocritical to tariff Canada and China, but then go to Canada to bring back Chinese stuff.....
...Only if the one going to Canada to bring back Chinese stuff also supports the choice to tariff Canada and China in that manner.
https://youtu.be/mX-QZ1eRNo8?si=L5p2ph_6Lzrv90su
Seems weird to applaud China but......
kevlarcorolla said:https://youtu.be/mX-QZ1eRNo8?si=L5p2ph_6Lzrv90su
Seems weird to applaud China but......
I have the impression that we have an administration with the mindset that this is a game of checkers, against a country that is playing chess.
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