So how do you learn how to drive manual "good"?

One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth.

Blip the throttle before you stick it in the lower gear.

Coldsnap wrote: One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth.

Make note of what RPM the engine is turning for the same speed in different gears. For example, I know that in my truck at 40 MPH 4th will be at 2000K or 3rd at 3000K. This means to maintain the same speed (40) when downshifting frm 4th to 3rd, I would let off the gas, clutch in, pop it into neutral, clutch out, rev engine to ~3000K, clutch in, pop it into 3rd, ease clutch out.

I agree with the earlier comments that if you are just trying to slow the car, use the brakes, not the engine unless mountain. If you are slowing but still carrying speed, such as through a curve, downshift to the appropriate gear before the curve starts .

EastCoastMojo wrote:

Coldsnap wrote: One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth.

Make note of what RPM the engine is turning for the same speed in different gears. For example, I know that in my truck at 40 MPH 4th will be at 2000K or 3rd at 3000K. This means to maintain the same speed (40) when downshifting frm 4th to 3rd, I would let off the gas, clutch in, pop it into neutral, clutch out, rev engine to ~3000K, clutch in, pop it into 3rd, ease clutch out. I agree with the earlier comments that if you are just trying to slow the car, use the brakes, not the engine unless mountain. If you are slowing but still carrying speed, such as through a curve, downshift to the appropriate gear before the curve starts .

AHH Ok. That makes sense. Another thing I wasn't doing was going from gear to neutral then to gear. I was going from 4th immediately to 3rd.

One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth

In the most basic sense you have an input shaft and an output shaft. Output shaft is always tied to road speed, input shaft speed you are controlling with the clutch, shifter, and engine rpm.

Every time you try to engage a gear, you have to change the speed of the input shaft to match whatever it's going to be once the gear is engaged. If you have a 3:1 first gear and try to get back into 1st gear from a roll, the input shaft has to speed up to 3 times the speed of the output shaft before the gear will engage. There are tiny clutches called synchros that serve to match the speed of the input shaft to what it needs to be to go into each gear.

When the clutch is out (engaged), the input shaft speed is your engine rpm. So, it's useful to think of engaging gears in terms of what your engine rpm will be once you get into that gear. Imagine that your first gear redlines at 35 mph. Imagine you are slowing down from 50mph to a slow roll, nearly stopped. You may think that, in preparation for reaching that speed, you should put the car in 1st gear while you are decelerating. You push the clutch in, go to neutral, and try to push into 1st while still going ~40mph. Anytime you have the clutch in and shifter not in a gear, the input shaft speed falls until it eventually stops or almost stops. If you let that shaft speed fall almost 0 and then push the shifter into 1st, you are trying to get your synchro to spin that shaft (and the 4-5 lb clutch disc on the end of it) up from 0 rpm to past your redline (7000-8000 rpm?) in the second or so you are pushing on the shifter from neutral to 1st. It doesnt want to do that. It may do it, but you will kill your synchros in short order.

Any time there is a big jump between your current engine rpm and the engine rpm you will have in the next gear at the road speed you are at, you are asking the synchro to change the shaft speed by that much. The bigger the rpm difference, the harder you have to push on the synchro, the sooner they break.

That's why you learn to do double-clutched rev-matched downshifts. In a double clutched rev matched downshift, you clutch in, move to neutral, clutch out, rev the engine in neutral to the speed it will be at when you engage the lower gear, and then clutch in and engage that gear. You use the big clutch and some gasoline (revving the engine) to replace the work of the small clutch (synchro) and metal-to-metal friction in matching shaft speeds.

If you master it, your synchros will last literally forever.

Easiest way to practice it is to go drive at a speed that can engage 4 gears, like 45-50 mph. At that speed you COULD use 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. So stay in second, go to 45-50, and note your engine rpm. Then shift up one gear at a time and note those rpms. Once you are in 5th gear, try putting the trans in neutral with the clutch out/disengaged, revving to those rpms, and shifting into those gears immediately after the engine is revved up. IF you're doing it right, the shifter will have almost no resistance going into each gear. Resistance = Synchro Wear = Particles floating around in your transmission, so less resistance means better everything.

It will seem horribly clunky at first, but eventually will become second nature and happen pretty quickly. Once you master this, you can move on to heel&toe technnique which is basically a way to double clutch rev match downshift WHILE braking for a corner.

That is what is known as double (de)clutching. It brings the input shafts side of the transmission up to whatever speed you rev the engine to. When properly executed the result is that the input and output shaft speeds are matched, leaving very little for the synchronizers to do and facilitating buttery smooth downshifts.

An easier method to start with is basic rev matching and letting the synchronizers do their job. Simultaneously lift out of the throttle and clutch in, simultaneously downshift and blip the throttle then clutch out and back on the throttle(or not). Get this down pat first before trying the above method.

I only really double clutch (up and down) when driving a trans with completely shot synchros, or the rare case of me losing the clutch and being forced to limp home without it, I guess I would also do it if you stuck me in a antique with a sliding gear crash box. I do heel toe a lot for the hell of it though, just single clutched. Unless you're doing abusive things like never changing the trans fluid or trying to shift a synchronized box without the clutch*, you'll probably wear out the bearings before a synchronizer ring.

*Regardless of what anybody says (unless a transmission engineers comes in and corrects me) trying to "float gears" in a synchro box is a stupid thing to do outside of an emergency. Rather than the sycnhro ring matching speed of the clutch disc, input shaft and everything else up to the synchronizer to the other side of the driveline (up to the tires) you're now asking the synchro to match speed of all of that plus the angular momentum of an entire running engine. Or more accurately, you're asking it to sit there and wear on the cone until whatever discrepancy in your rev matching changes and things line up, at which point it pops into gear. At absolute best you're doing the same wear as driving it normally.

When I teach people to drive stick you keep your hand off the shifter unless the clutch pedal is buried in the carpet. Saves a lot of mistakes.

I love how in depth a lot of you are goingn suggesting he double clutch, heel toe, yada yada. Keep in mind the op has been driving a manual for a week. KISS keep it simple stupid. Just drive the dang thing, learn more involved things once you mastered basic operation.

Also a bunch of guys argued after I said let the engine slow you down. I meant if your in 5th or 6th, whatever leave it in gear and foot off the clutch until your slowed down then mash the clutch and put it in neutral. I wasnt suggesting the guy to rev match downshift to a stop just a simple engine braking instead of coasting, autos do it so should manuals

Coldsnap wrote: One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth.

what bgkast and ECM said … but if all you're trying to do is slow down for a change in speed limit or pace of traffic … just use your brakes, then if you're too slow for the gear you're in, down shift how ever many gears you need to …. a smooth move between gears with a slight blip of the throttle will help with the smooth transition … with most modern cars you really don't have to do the blip .. assuming you're not trying to emulate a racing shift … if it's just because of traffic or speed limit change … you can use the situation for practice

Coldsnap wrote:

EastCoastMojo wrote:

Coldsnap wrote: One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth.

Make note of what RPM the engine is turning for the same speed in different gears. For example, I know that in my truck at 40 MPH 4th will be at 2000K or 3rd at 3000K. This means to maintain the same speed (40) when downshifting frm 4th to 3rd, I would let off the gas, clutch in, pop it into neutral, clutch out, rev engine to ~3000K, clutch in, pop it into 3rd, ease clutch out. I agree with the earlier comments that if you are just trying to slow the car, use the brakes, not the engine unless mountain. If you are slowing but still carrying speed, such as through a curve, downshift to the appropriate gear before the curve starts .

AHH Ok. That makes sense. Another thing I wasn't doing was going from gear to neutral then to gear. I was going from 4th immediately to 3rd.

with modern synchromesh transmissions, you can do that … as long as you don't try to slam it from 4th to 3rd … clutch in, move shift lever (with or without a throttle blip) smoothly and easily … and away you go

Vigo wrote:

One thing in not getting is down shifting. Like if I'm in 3rd going 35-40mph and need to go to 15mph not really sure what to do. I will usually brake and put I into the gear I think Is appropriate for the speed, but it def doesn't feel smooth

In the most basic sense you have an input shaft and an output shaft. Output shaft is always tied to road speed, input shaft speed you are controlling with the clutch, shifter, and engine rpm. Every time you try to engage a gear, you have to change the speed of the input shaft to match whatever it's going to be once the gear is engaged. If you have a 3:1 first gear and try to get back into 1st gear from a roll, the input shaft has to speed up to 3 times the speed of the output shaft before the gear will engage. There are tiny clutches called synchros that serve to match the speed of the input shaft to what it needs to be to go into each gear. When the clutch is out (engaged), the input shaft speed is your engine rpm. So, it's useful to think of engaging gears in terms of what your engine rpm will be once you get into that gear. Imagine that your first gear redlines at 35 mph. Imagine you are slowing down from 50mph to a slow roll, nearly stopped. You may think that, in preparation for reaching that speed, you should put the car in 1st gear while you are decelerating. You push the clutch in, go to neutral, and try to push into 1st while still going ~40mph. Anytime you have the clutch in and shifter not in a gear, the input shaft speed falls until it eventually stops or almost stops. If you let that shaft speed fall almost 0 and then push the shifter into 1st, you are trying to get your synchro to spin that shaft (and the 4-5 lb clutch disc on the end of it) up from 0 rpm to past your redline (7000-8000 rpm?) in the second or so you are pushing on the shifter from neutral to 1st. It doesnt want to do that. It may do it, but you will kill your synchros in short order. Any time there is a big jump between your current engine rpm and the engine rpm you will have in the next gear at the road speed you are at, you are asking the synchro to change the shaft speed by that much. The bigger the rpm difference, the harder you have to push on the synchro, the sooner they break. That's why you learn to do double-clutched rev-matched downshifts. In a double clutched rev matched downshift, you clutch in, move to neutral, clutch out, rev the engine in neutral to the speed it will be at when you engage the lower gear, and then clutch in and engage that gear. You use the big clutch and some gasoline (revving the engine) to replace the work of the small clutch (synchro) and metal-to-metal friction in matching shaft speeds. If you master it, your synchros will last literally forever. Easiest way to practice it is to go drive at a speed that can engage 4 gears, like 45-50 mph. At that speed you COULD use 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. So stay in second, go to 45-50, and note your engine rpm. Then shift up one gear at a time and note those rpms. Once you are in 5th gear, try putting the trans in neutral with the clutch out/disengaged, revving to those rpms, and shifting into those gears immediately after the engine is revved up. IF you're doing it right, the shifter will have almost no resistance going into each gear. Resistance = Synchro Wear = Particles floating around in your transmission, so less resistance means better everything. It will seem horribly clunky at first, but eventually will become second nature and happen pretty quickly. Once you master this, you can move on to heel&toe technnique which is basically a way to double clutch rev match downshift WHILE braking for a corner.

what he said … and the "lazy" way is instead of double clutching, or even heel and toe, is to just emulate the double clutch by blipping the throttle to a matching rpm and slipping the lever into the next lower gear … I say lazy, because it won't work all that well on track … but just tooling around the neighborhood it will teach rev matching as a beginning

chiodos wrote: I love how in depth a lot of you are goingn suggesting he double clutch, heel toe, yada yada. Keep in mind the op has been driving a manual for a week. KISS keep it simple stupid. Just drive the dang thing, learn more involved things once you mastered basic operation. Also a bunch of guys argued after I said let the engine slow you down. I meant if your in 5th or 6th, whatever leave it in gear and foot off the clutch until your slowed down then mash the clutch and put it in neutral. I wasnt suggesting the guy to rev match downshift to a stop just a simple engine braking instead of coasting, autos do it so should manuals

we may well have misunderstood you … I totally agree with just staying in the gear you're in and slowing with the brakes until you've slowed to the point of slipping it into neutral and letting the clutch back out

Ugh. Is it normal while learning to have small fits of rage? I realize I'm not even a week into learning but still. This has been a REALLY big change going from my V8 automatic Crown Victoria to a manual turbo fiat. Like really big... I only really drive in the city, so Fiat fits my needs better. I don't get how some people with long commutes can do it in a small car.

In reply to Coldsnap:

Generally on a long commute you are just leaving it in gear and not really shifting, so it was never a big deal for me. Even then, after a decade of driving stick, it has become so completely second nature that I don't even consciously think about it anymore. I've always preferred smaller cars for the agility, too. My E39 wagon is a bitch to park and squeeze through traffic, it sucks on gas, and feels about as heavy as it is, just a few reasons I'm looking at downsizing again.

SlickDizzy wrote: In reply to Coldsnap: Generally on a long commute you are just leaving it in gear and not really shifting, so it was never a big deal for me. Even then, after a decade of driving stick, it has become so completely second nature that I don't even consciously think about it anymore. I've always preferred smaller cars for the agility, too. My E39 wagon is a bitch to park and squeeze through traffic, it sucks on gas, and feels about as heavy as it is, just a few reasons I'm looking at downsizing again.

Yea, I can really relate to the problems with driving a giant sedan around a busy town/city. Downsizing is the right way to go. Just a big step. I realized I'm like 10-15 years behind the American downsizing trend as these are my past three cars. I can see why American grasped onto the giant sedan as long as it could, there's a certain allure. And holy hell, I just realized I'm nostalgic for an Eagle Vision..

Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: To add to what 1988RedT2 said, an old mechanic, WWII vet, that owned a LBC shop was riding with me trying to figure out what was going on with my Spitfire. I come to a red light so as I stop I keep the clutch in and put the car in 1st gear to wait for the light to change. He tells me that doing that puts a lot of extra wear on the throw out bearing and the rest of the clutch parts and that if you are stopping for any length of time to put the car in neutral and get off the clutch. I have been following his advice for the last 20 plus years and my current DD has 225K miles on the original clutch. Of course YMMV.

In a Spitfire, the wear is more on the thrust washers (never start a Spitfire with the clutch in).

Regardless, I am essentially self-taught. My foot is on the clutch pedal ONLY when shifting. I generally don't use the clutch or down-shifting to slow - brakes are cheaper and easier to replace than a clutch. I can and know how to when needed, but I rarely do. I generally engage the clutch as quickly as possible. Now and then when I'm bored I'll rev-match and shift without the clutch.

Whatever I do, it seems to make clutches last... my '03 TDI (a car known for going through clutches in 100K or so) has over 329K miles on the original clutch. I've thought about replacing it (even bought the kit), but it still works fine and now I kinda want to see how far it will go. Shooting for 500K. My Acura Integra before it has 229K on the original clutch and I beat the ever living piss out of that car.

A guy at work as an Abarth, and he is used to driving manual transmissions but has to push the sport button to get the throttle to be more responsive or he will clunk it.

On a semi-related note, I just noticed that the Porsche Experience Center is now offering this course:

https://www.porschedriving.com/experiences/driving-experiences/master-the-manual

In reply to Coldsnap:

In 2 or 3 months from now, you'll be shifting the car without even thinking about it.....it becomes a subconscious activity.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Coldsnap: In 2 or 3 months from now, you'll be shifting the car without even thinking about it.....it becomes a subconscious activity.

Truth.

Then you will jump back in the crown vic and push the brake pedal in like it's the clutch and bounce your head off of the steering wheel. Ask me how I know.

HAH!

My two cents (mostly what other people have said):

First, only shift a synchronized trans without the clutch in an emergency. It might do it, but you'll wear out the synchros real fast.

Double-clutching is a good skill to have after you figure some other stuff out.

Rev-matching downshifts is pretty important. Not only does it not upset the car, but it also slips the clutch less. Less clutch slipping is always good.

On the subject of clutch slipping: avoid it as much as possible. Clutches only wear when they're slipping, and they only heat up when they're slipping. I try to get the clutch out as quickly as possible. After I'm moving, the pedal goes in and out very quickly, and, if I've moved my hand quickly enough, all is well.

You should tune your upshift speed (how long it takes to get the whole thing done) to how quickly your car drops RPM. My car has a bunch of light weight engine stuff, so it drops very quickly. Newer throttle-by-wire stuff tends to drop much more slowly, so your shift needs to take longer so you can pop the clutch on the next gear at the proper RPM.

And, I've saved the most basic thing for last. Learn exactly where the pedal has to be to make the car start to move. Sit with your foot on the brakes, and carefully observe the tachometer while slowly releasing the clutch. Note carefully where the RPM just starts to drop. When you are pulling out, especially on an uphill, that's where you need to put the pedal before you let off the brakes and hit the gas. That's also as far as you want to push the clutch to upshift. When you only push the clutch as far as necessary, it makes engagement much smoother, because your foot is barely moving when it starts to engage, instead of moving at full speed, like it would be if you started letting it up at the floor. The effect is the same weather you are pulling out or shifting.

Also, at some point, learn to heel-toe, because it can help pulling out sometimes as well as on downshifts.

And, if it's between spinning the tires and stalling, always spin 'em. At least the guy behind you isn't gonna rear end you.

I hope this helps. I wish I could be there to demonstrate.

Do they teach driver's ed here?

Couldn't help myself, that's what I think of every time I read the thread title.

In reply to snailmont5oh:

Only person ive ever heard suggest not pushing the clutch in all the way between shifts...you realize even with the clutch fully depressed theres still some drag right?