So I want to build an M5

As some of you might have seen, we're thinking about an LS project. Something Ro-Spit level. Something you all would call stupid and impossible.

I think I've convinced my dad to let me build it. And I think I have a plan– I'm going to make an M5.

I've found a sub-$1k BMW e34 wagon with a blown engine, and I'd like to make it much faster than a new M5 wagon. Naturally, I'm going to use an american V8 to do it.

Now, an LS1 powered e34 wagon would be kind of interesting, but it's not good enough. Everyone has seen all kinds of LS1 swap. So, how is ours going to stand out?

Easy, It will also be all-wheel-drive.

What does the hive mind say?

Awesome sauce?

I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

Add turbos and you have my approval.

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route.

I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

C'mon Matt! There are millions of 'em! Look at all the Tahoe's, Suburbans, etc.

This sounds like a pretty cool project. What we need is some reality show E36 M3 here- how about a father-son build-off? Readers vote? Big Vegas reveal (SEMA?).

(sigh...) Oh to live in a state with no emissions laws... +1 for Florida there...

Otherwise, sounds like a fun project. AWD will be tricky, but where there's a will, there's a way. Didn't somebody in the LS thread mention one of the SUV's use an integrated front diff/oil pan? Find some front spindle assemblies from a wrecked, newer 530xi. There are companies that will make CV axles any way you want them. Get the gear ratios to match. Sort out the brakes. Win!

Tom Suddard wrote: I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Umm.. I guess... but why? Sounds like a great way to take a fun car and make it ungodly annoying... Personally, if I were doing such a build I'd rip out as much of the BMW wiring as possible and replace it with a Painless harness. My memories of E36 wiring nightmares are still too vivid.

Sounds like fun. You should talk to this GRM forum member, who built an e34 BMW wagon using an L33/T-56 combo, which he then turbo'd.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/231/

http://www.fquick.com/garages/BMW/5_Series/1994/11782/

Tom Suddard wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route. I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Don't make it too complicated. There are off-the-shelf solutions available that will do that.

I like everything about it except the LS.

Swank Force One wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route. I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Don't make it too complicated. There are off-the-shelf solutions available that will do that.

I personally am not interested in magazine articles that use off-the-shelf solutions.

Ian F wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote: I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Umm.. I guess... but why? Sounds like a great way to take a fun car and make it ungodly annoying... Personally, if I were doing such a build I'd rip out as much of the BMW wiring as possible and replace it with a Painless harness. My memories of E36 wiring nightmares are still too vivid.

Wouldn't it be cool if I could improve lap times with an ample dose of computers and code? I want to see what is possible, and with a project like this the question should be "why not."

bravenrace wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route. I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Don't make it too complicated. There are off-the-shelf solutions available that will do that.

I personally am not interested in magazine articles that use off-the-shelf solutions.

I suppose they should build a brand new EMS using Arduino chips and custom code they created, then?

My point was that there are many standalone EMS on the market today will do the things he's talking about. No sense in re-inventing the wheel for the sole purpose of spending more time (and probably money).

I'm not interested in magazine articles that exist purely to show off expensive and time consuming engineering circle jerks that don't need to exist.

I suppose this illustrates why there needs to be a happy medium. When i see articles about tons and tons of custom electronics, i start to read them, try to understa-sssnnnnoooooorrreeeeee

Teh E36 M3 wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

C'mon Matt! There are millions of 'em! Look at all the Tahoe's, Suburbans, etc. This sounds like a pretty cool project. What we need is some reality show E36 M3 here- how about a father-son build-off? Readers vote? Big Vegas reveal (SEMA?).

Hehe - fair enough. Although I was thinking of something manual that didn't have gearing built for a truck. Those didn't sound like a lot of fun in my half-informed mind, but I have been corrected.

I would be WAY more interested if you started with a more interesting, less M5-ish car.

I would start with a Saab 9-5 and RWD it and then insert the V8.

An American sedan would be even better. Aurora, Caprice, Marauder. Something like that.

Sorry, but turning a BMW into something like another BMW is not that exciting.

Also, AWD doesn't interest me in the least.

But, you asked for my opinions, so even though it isn't that encouraging, that's what it is.

But all of those cars cost the same or more than an old 5-series wagon with a blown motor.

AWD is a necessary evil. The goal isn't burn-outs, it is a UTCC win.

And to all that have asked– forced induction could easily be added after it is drivable.

There was a 525ix e34 wagon sold in europe, but it was basically the same drivetrain as a 325ix so it probably wouldn't be the best choice behind an LS engine.

Some years ago Summit Racing commissioned a street rod that used the all wheel drive components from a Chevy Astro van, adapted to an LS engine and six speed transmission: http://www.summitracing.com/expertadviceandnews/featuredvehicles/q-deuce-redux-summit-racings-all-wheel-drive-32-roadster There may be some ideas to glean from there.

I want to see an regular cab, shortwide pickup turned into a corner carving monster.

Make it mid-engined and put an SLA setup out back. 315s at each corner, slammed to the ground.

Honestly, the project you have proposed doesn't sound all that interesting. V8 into pre-2000 BMW's has been done plenty and the AWD is added comlexity and weight for no real gain.

In reply to z31maniac:

That's been done a million times already.

Tom Suddard wrote: But all of those cars cost the same or more than an old 5-series wagon with a blown motor. AWD is a necessary evil. The goal isn't burn-outs, it is a UTCC win. And to all that have asked– forced induction could easily be added after it is drivable.

Why not save weight and do it to an EF Civic, mid-engined?

Swank Force One wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route. I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Don't make it too complicated. There are off-the-shelf solutions available that will do that.

I personally am not interested in magazine articles that use off-the-shelf solutions.

I suppose they should build a brand new EMS using Arduino chips and custom code they created, then? My point was that there are many standalone EMS on the market today will do the things he's talking about. No sense in re-inventing the wheel for the sole purpose of spending more time (and probably money). I'm not interested in magazine articles that exist purely to show off expensive and time consuming engineering circle jerks that don't need to exist. I suppose this illustrates why there needs to be a happy medium. When i see articles about tons and tons of custom electronics, i start to read them, try to understa-sssnnnnoooooorrreeeeee

You don't agree with me. That's okay, but you didn't convince me to agree with you either.

Tom Suddard wrote: Wouldn't it be cool if I could improve lap times with an ample dose of computers and code? I want to see what is possible, and with a project like this the question should be "why not."

So... you think you can replicate millions of dollars worth of BMW techno-wizardry with an ipad and some Radio Shack PCB's... Well, I admire your youthful enthusiasm... go for it...

If you're going for a UTCC win, why are you starting with such a large, heavy car?

bravenrace wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

Matt B wrote: Awesome sauce? I like it. Is there an AWD trans that fits the LS? Or is that the stupid/unpossible part?

There is, but it is an automatic. I think I'm going to go the paddle-shifted computerized magic box route. I'm going to try to work in copious amounts of techno-wizardry, both because I think it's interesting and because we haven't written much about it before. One of my goals is to recreate the new M5's adjustable traction and stability control systems.

Don't make it too complicated. There are off-the-shelf solutions available that will do that.

I personally am not interested in magazine articles that use off-the-shelf solutions.

I suppose they should build a brand new EMS using Arduino chips and custom code they created, then? My point was that there are many standalone EMS on the market today will do the things he's talking about. No sense in re-inventing the wheel for the sole purpose of spending more time (and probably money). I'm not interested in magazine articles that exist purely to show off expensive and time consuming engineering circle jerks that don't need to exist. I suppose this illustrates why there needs to be a happy medium. When i see articles about tons and tons of custom electronics, i start to read them, try to understa-sssnnnnoooooorrreeeeee

You don't agree with me. That's okay, but you didn't convince me to agree with you either.

Wasn't trying to convince, just clarify. Apologies if it looked otherwise.

Weird - as a registered bmw fanbois - and engine swap fan, thought I'd be all over it - but my reaction was - meh. Maybe it's that bmw already made v8 wagons and awd cars - and there's a bmw engine swap guru in the build threads who did an older 5 series LS swap...

Tom Suddard wrote: But all of those cars cost the same or more than an old 5-series wagon with a blown motor.

Fair enough, but equal cost doesn't equal better product. It's just not interesting. It's a boring BMW turned into a non-boring BMW. Make it interesting. Think more Rospit, less BMW clone.

oldtin wrote: Weird - as a registered bmw fanbois - and engine swap fan, thought I'd be all over it - but my reaction was - meh. Maybe it's that bmw already made v8 wagons and awd cars - and there's a bmw engine swap guru in the build threads who did an older 5 series LS swap...

Same here... although my fanbois'ism has been severely tarnished over the past few years.