So my friend's 2008 STI blew up the motor last week.

Boost_Crazy wrote: Secondary is that the ring lands are not as strong as other turbo cars, and not tolerant of detonation.

Large bores mean more likely to detonate, short stack height means that you don't have much room between the top of the piston and the wristpin. I remember when the 2.5RS was new, people felt that the 2.5 would not take to forced induction because the stroke imposed certain restrictions on the piston design.

Contrast with, say, my 80s Audi engine, which had shorter rods than the nonturbo engine (of the same displacement) so they could make some truly beefy pistons. I could probably put 6mm longer rods in the engine and just flycut that much material from the top of the OE piston (the dishes were truly deep, like 10mm) and it would still have an acceptable amount of room above the top ring.

Here's the tune issue (this is a stock Spec.B):

Notice what it's doing at 2600 RPM - 12.8 lbs of boost and the AFR is still at 14.1! The AFR first drops below 13 at 3300 RPM, after it's been in serious boost for the past 700 RPM.

Here's the URL for the run: http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/getrundetails.php?runid1=87

Mezzanine wrote: I try not to stereotype people, cars, and engines, but I have a very bad impression of Subaru engines. When they fail, it is usually catastrophic, and I read a lot of stories similar to this one. Did you see the project car in GRM and how that engine failed? All the fail. Someone proposed a Subaru engine for my X1/9 project, and I couldn't bring myself to say anything nice, so I chose not to respond. To the OP, he is out of luck with Subaru. They aren't going to do anything. He can choose to have the car repaired or he can sell it. Either way it sounds like he might need another car to cover the interim period for repair.

I suggested the subi motor for the x19. I actually suggested a $600 jdm ej20 twin turbo. So you nuke it, $700 gets you a new one. Big deal. Where else are you getting 250 hp in a low mileage engine for $700

That's not what I heard. What I heard was 17:1 at 3-4psi boost at some certain RPM.

But regardless, lower RPM is exactly where Joe Applianceguy is going to be driving it...

Knurled wrote: That's not what I heard. What I heard was 17:1 at 3-4psi boost at some certain RPM. But regardless, lower RPM is exactly where Joe Applianceguy is going to be driving it...

for anyone who cares, here's the stock A/F on my 09 WRX...

even when brand new there was a noticeable hesitation under boost in midrange as the engine pulled timing. But I had no idea how it dropped off such a shelf.

stock tune:

OTS Cobb stage 1 .. big difference, if still not entirely ideal (totally stock engine)

In reply to Knurled:

Here is a pic of a 4G63 piston next to an EJ25 piston...

Makes me love my 5.0 302!

My 351w had clean oil at just over 200k and my 4.0 in my XJ was perfect at over 200k

Under 100kmi and stock engines blow up? Give me a freaking break!

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: That's not what I heard. What I heard was 17:1 at 3-4psi boost at some certain RPM. But regardless, lower RPM is exactly where Joe Applianceguy is going to be driving it...

for anyone who cares, here's the stock A/F on my 09 WRX... even when brand new there was a noticeable hesitation under boost in midrange as the engine pulled timing. But I had no idea how it dropped off such a shelf. stock tune: OTS Cobb stage 1 .. big difference, if still not entirely ideal (totally stock engine)

So I'm guessing emissions testing happens below 4k RPMs?

At least here (CT), emissions testing means plugging into the ODB2 port and reading for codes if the car is '96-up. Pre-'96 gets the roller test, but even that is basically at idle.

Harvey wrote:

mad_machine wrote: $5000 to replace the engine? I hope that is a new or factory rebuild. How damaged is the engine. Could you get away with a new head, piston, rod, and some bearings and button it back up?

I'd have to get a full rundown from him, but apparently they were just gonna do a new short block. The dealer has $4500 for parts and $2500 for labor.

New shortblock is about $2k (been there done that). I'd find used heads and rebuild them rather than new. Save some cash.

Harvey wrote:

Kramer wrote: I find it hard to believe a factory defect would take 80,000 miles to show up. That's a pretty good life, even though we now expect more. Any slight neglect over those 80k miles could have caused this problem. Now if every 2008 Subaru blew up at 80k, then there may be a class action suit, but I doubt that's the case. The car owner can bring a lawsuit, but I doubt ant lawyer would take this case. Sorry about your bad experience. Better luck next time.

Wow, any slight neglect could make a motor blow up eh? What is slight neglect? Seems to me that slight neglect shouldn't blow up a motor, but maybe we have a different definition of slight.

Legally, any failure to comply with the mfr's recommended service and maintenance could cause this failure. If you're so sure it's a manufacturing issue, then you should lend the money to your friend so he can sue. I'm pretty sure that would be a waste of your money. Let us know how it turns out.

Hey, we have pics!

Kramer wrote:

Harvey wrote:

Kramer wrote: I find it hard to believe a factory defect would take 80,000 miles to show up. That's a pretty good life, even though we now expect more. Any slight neglect over those 80k miles could have caused this problem. Now if every 2008 Subaru blew up at 80k, then there may be a class action suit, but I doubt that's the case. The car owner can bring a lawsuit, but I doubt ant lawyer would take this case. Sorry about your bad experience. Better luck next time.

Wow, any slight neglect could make a motor blow up eh? What is slight neglect? Seems to me that slight neglect shouldn't blow up a motor, but maybe we have a different definition of slight.

Legally, any failure to comply with the mfr's recommended service and maintenance could cause this failure. If you're so sure it's a manufacturing issue, then you should lend the money to your friend so he can sue. I'm pretty sure that would be a waste of your money. Let us know how it turns out.

Yes, but any dealer that tries to pull something like that under warranty better have some solid evidence that said neglect occurred (oil starvation, sludging, over rev in the computer) and of course there is no evidence of that in this case, but there is also no warranty. It's definitely a manufacturing issue, but as you say the legalities of it are too expensive and/or time consuming to bother with.

How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

HiTempguy wrote: Manufacturing incorrectly? Improper tuning? That doesnt make the motor itself is E36 M3. It means some jerkoff engineer f%$ked up somewhere.

Which means the engine is crappy - if you have to research and repair the engine (and the ECU is part of the engine) in order to get a reasonable life out of it (which I would define as 200k miles with only scheduled maintenance) then it's a E36 M3ty engine.

Harvey wrote: How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

I'd take it unless he just wants to put another motor in it and keep driving it.

I'd probably replace the engine and keep driving it. He got 80k miles and 6 years of driving it. Pay the money and get that again.

dculberson wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Manufacturing incorrectly? Improper tuning? That doesnt make the motor itself is E36 M3. It means some jerkoff engineer f%$ked up somewhere.

Which means the engine is crappy - if you have to research and repair the engine (and the ECU is part of the engine) in order to get a reasonable life out of it (which I would define as 200k miles with only scheduled maintenance) then it's a E36 M3ty engine.

This. If this was a GM, this place would be on fire condemning them.

z31maniac wrote:

Harvey wrote: How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

I'd take it unless he just wants to put another motor in it and keep driving it. I'd probably replace the engine and keep driving it. He got 80k miles and 6 years of driving it. Pay the money and get that again.

There is some discussion on this topic. He would like to trade the car, but they have nothing he wants to get into. He would like to get into a 2015 Mustang GT, but obviously that isn't available until the fall. Nothing like getting out of a first year car into another one right? Also he is thinking maybe Audi S4 or BMW 335.

The latest thought is to see if he can get them to deal on the repair, but he still doesn't want to keep it for very long after that. Maybe a few months and then sell, but I'm thinking he really needs to get them to come down on the repair costs to make that worth it, otherwise he really should just drive the thing (maybe go get a new tune on the car to fix the fueling).

If he's not going to trade the car in, I'd start talking to Suby repair shops to see how much they'd charge for a new long block. He also should seriously consider having the motor built with forged internals, he'll get the money back in resale. I know I'd be far more likely to buy the car if he had a receipt for a built motor...

I'm sure he can find a good indy shop that'll build the motor and it won't be any more than what the dealer wants, if not less.

Maybe he can get Subaru to cover 50% of the cost. My sister had the head gaskets go on her Forester, which was WAY out of warranty and Subaru paid for 50% of the repair...

If not, $10k trade in is pretty solid, it'll end up being a bit more with the tax savings.

Harvey wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Harvey wrote: How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

I'd take it unless he just wants to put another motor in it and keep driving it. I'd probably replace the engine and keep driving it. He got 80k miles and 6 years of driving it. Pay the money and get that again.

There is some discussion on this topic. He would like to trade the car, but they have nothing he wants to get into. He would like to get into a 2015 Mustang GT, but obviously that isn't available until the fall. Nothing like getting out of a first year car into another one right? Also he is thinking maybe Audi S4 or BMW 335. The latest thought is to see if he can get them to deal on the repair, but he still doesn't want to keep it for very long after that. Maybe a few months and then sell, but I'm thinking he really needs to get them to come down on the repair costs to make that worth it, otherwise he really should just drive the thing (maybe go get a new tune on the car to fix the fueling).

I'd tell him to get another motor in, drive it for a few months, then trade it in on a new Mustang.

I LOVED my '13 GT. The Coyote is a beast and sounds amazing. I'm hoping it gets a power bump to go with the IRS.

He would trade, but nothing interests him on their lots. They are a Subaru, Ford, Mazda dealer and he is a little put off the Subaru so that leaves him with few options.

Harvey wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Harvey wrote: How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

I'd take it unless he just wants to put another motor in it and keep driving it. I'd probably replace the engine and keep driving it. He got 80k miles and 6 years of driving it. Pay the money and get that again.

There is some discussion on this topic. He would like to trade the car, but they have nothing he wants to get into. He would like to get into a 2015 Mustang GT, but obviously that isn't available until the fall. Nothing like getting out of a first year car into another one right? Also he is thinking maybe Audi S4 or BMW 335. The latest thought is to see if he can get them to deal on the repair, but he still doesn't want to keep it for very long after that. Maybe a few months and then sell, but I'm thinking he really needs to get them to come down on the repair costs to make that worth it, otherwise he really should just drive the thing (maybe go get a new tune on the car to fix the fueling).

The dealership is offering $10k because they know they can fix and sell it for $18-19k. He's better off getting it fixed and driving it until the 2015 Mustang comes out.

z31maniac wrote:

Harvey wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Harvey wrote: How much do you guys think the car is worth as it sits? The dealer is offering a $10k trade.

I'd take it unless he just wants to put another motor in it and keep driving it. I'd probably replace the engine and keep driving it. He got 80k miles and 6 years of driving it. Pay the money and get that again.

There is some discussion on this topic. He would like to trade the car, but they have nothing he wants to get into. He would like to get into a 2015 Mustang GT, but obviously that isn't available until the fall. Nothing like getting out of a first year car into another one right? Also he is thinking maybe Audi S4 or BMW 335. The latest thought is to see if he can get them to deal on the repair, but he still doesn't want to keep it for very long after that. Maybe a few months and then sell, but I'm thinking he really needs to get them to come down on the repair costs to make that worth it, otherwise he really should just drive the thing (maybe go get a new tune on the car to fix the fueling).

I'd tell him to get another motor in, drive it for a few months, then trade it in on a new Mustang. I LOVED my '13 GT. The Coyote is a beast and sounds amazing. I'm hoping it gets a power bump to go with the IRS.

He is leaning towards this, trying to put as little money and time into the car as possible to get it fixed and then trade it at the end of the year for a new Mustang.

There is a local shop that can rebuild the motor, but they are really backed up for months, so it's probably gotta be done by the dealer.

dculberson wrote: (and the ECU is part of the engine)

No, its not in any way, shape, or form. The motor itself is not an issue. Its the control of the motor.

What you are basically saying is the operator of a motor is part of the engine, because an operator can also asplode an engine too

Bobzilla wrote: This. If this was a GM, this place would be on fire condemning them.

I already went over this; 4L60e's are garbage. Luckily, they are also cheap to repair. And the earlier 5.3L's did have piston slap that warranted anger IMO.

Neither of those things are as simple to fix as paying ~$400 for a performance tune for the car which makes it better in every CONCEIVABLE WAY and keeps your car from blowing up. But meh, totally apples to apples comparison amirite?

Harvey wrote: Nothing like getting out of a first year car into another one right? Also he is thinking maybe Audi S4 or BMW 335.

So he's a masochist, then.

Maybe your friend can buy a longblock from a Subi vendor like Crawford or just pick up a long block from one of the mail order Subi dealers and either have the dealer or the indy shop install it.

Hard to believe there's only 1 indy Subi shop around...