So what am I doing wrong...an autocross question.

Last year I attended the Match Tour in Pittsburgh as a lark.  I had been autocrossing off and on for over 15 years and figured that I would give it a shot.  The talent on display there blew me away and I decided to take my driving a bit more seriously.  So I took the Evo school and I started talking to other racers about lines and I practiced. I worked on technique, car setup, concentration, etc etc etc.  I feel like I am a lot better than I was last year.   

This year I started out with the Starting Line School to get ready for the Match Tour 2018. The school was amazing, but let's face it, I'm not going to improve in a week.  I have to work to overcome my bad habits and apply what I learned.  Still, I knew what to do and I was 100% focused on doing my best.  

The event was challenging; rain, 35-degree temps, the wrong brake pads, stress unrelated to the event, whine whine whine.  But I applied my training and went out there determined to give it my all.  I got a total of 10 runs on the same course, and didn't nail it a single time.  I was at a 52.5 when other Fiestas were in the 51s and 50s.  

I don't care that I was the slowest of the Fiestas, other people are faster than me and that's cool.  What I care about it that that same car on the same tires in the same conditions on the same course can be 2.5 seconds faster than me.  I can see how I might have  shaved some time and got down another .2 or .4 seconds - but 1.5 seconds?  Or 2.5?!?!?  That is enough of a gap to tell me one of two things: 

1) I just plain don't have what it takes to get any better.  I'm not talking pity party here, I mean literally I don't have the feel for what the car is capable of or where its limits are. I can visualize my run and correct errors in my line or mistakes I made, but after a run I think was technically perfect, I cant see where I can go 2 seconds faster.  Like, I can take all the piano lessons I want, but if I am tone deaf with stubby fingers and no rhythm, there is going to be a limit of how well I can play.  Maybe my senses and reflexes are at their max and that's that.   It's not an age thing either because I see plenty of people older than me kicking ass.  Just my own personal level of skill is tapped out.

2) Everyone else is cheating.  Just kidding. It's only really one thing, unless you have thoughts?  

the cold and the rain could be it right there.  keep at it. 
it's muscle memory combined with good reflexes, Jinba Ittai and a good setup (for the conditions).  Some days just aren't your day.  I guarantee it's happened to all of us at least once.
 

In reply to pinchvalve :

I’ve always thought the best way to go faster is to get a faster driver to co-drive with you at a few events(or a whole season) & make sure you ride along with each other.

Beyond that, spin & hit more cones, then dial it back a bit?

What reading have you done on the subject?

Are you using any data acquisition?

On a track the min speed in most corners is very close between an intermediate driver and a pro, the difference is mainly in how much speed is carried into the corner and how early they are able to begin powering out.

Data acquisition can help. Especially one that can read throttle position and brake pressure. It's very hard to "truth" yourself, but data doesn't lie. 

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to pinchvalve :

I’ve always thought the best way to go faster is to get a faster driver to co-drive with you at a few events(or a whole season) & make sure you ride along with each other.

Beyond that, spin & hit more cones, then dial it back a bit?

This works phenomenally well. Sometimes it's the car and you don't jive. I've always been better in underpowered FWD cars than I am in over powered RWD. Which one do I love more? the slower of the two with me. I did a year borrowing rides. Got to drive a lot of cool stuff and find what worked for me best. That led to the Forte and STF for a few years. 

Autocross is challenging.  For me, it took a local school event where I ran the same course 40 times or more on a Saturday with instructors and against myself, after which I dropped 6 seconds off my time on a 40 second course.  I was fairly consistent after that, but I just had to break through and program my eyes and my brain.

Seat time with an instructor is what you need, regardless of your aptitude.  Failing that, video, video, video.  Review it between runs if you can.

I hate to say it, but 50 years old is not the time to be hoping for miracles of improvement in a sport that is entirely about eyesight, reaction time, and muscle memory. 

Have fun. 

SVreX said:

I hate to say it, but 50 years old is not the time to be hoping for miracles of improvement in a sport that is entirely about eyesight, reaction time, and muscle memory. 

Have fun. 

Must disagree!

Autocross is more about planning and programming your mind to control your car on the course. 

Are you too timid and not pushing the car?  Are you too aggressive and find yourself pushing through turns and waiting for grip to return.  Push the limits.  Spin out occasionally.  Yes, find those limits.

Are you spending enough time planning?  How many times do you walk the course?  Can you close your eyes and drive the course in your mind?  Know every braking point, shift point, throttle, etc.  If not, walk some more.  Did you observe and variation in the pavement?  Bumps, off camber, paint lines, grates, pavement breaking up from someone lese driving a different line, etc.  Those require an adjustment too your line.  Sometimes I have students struggle with a particular turn.  When I tell them that 3 turns early is where you set up for that one they look at my like I'm an idiot.  Then they go out and drop more time.

Autocross is managing a lot more variables than mashing the gas and turning.  Keep at it!  Speed will come!

I have not gotten to use mine yet, but my buddy just got back from his first track event using the Apex Track Pro. It's unique in that it builds a model of your vehicle and will instantly help you tune your "butt dyno" to know if you are braking too hard, not carrying enough speed, over slowing etc. He said it was massive to have that immediate feedback on what you were doing right or wrong.

Do not discount the outside stress you mentioned. It can cause you to perform poorly in lots of not really noticible areas. Lots of small mistakes add up to 2.5 seconds fast.

Especially when the skill is new, outside stress will affect you the most when the skill is still fresh.

In reply to trucke :

I don't mind you disagreeing. But I know my limits. I'm 56, and was 45 before I ever tried autocrossing. 

I'm not bad, and I'm certainly better than I was, but there is no way I can do what I could have when I was younger. 

As someone who owns a car that is consistently 3 seconds slower with me behind the wheel, I can sympathize. There are a handful of rally good drivers in the area, and you know most of them already. Talk to them, let them ride with you, let them drive and watch their shift points and brake points.

It annoys me to no end when Alex or Dante outrun me in my own car, but every time is a learning experience. 

Left foot braking let's you apply brakes at the same time you are coming off the throttle.

Slow in, fast out.

That's all I got.

One other suggestion- can you have a driver who you know and is fast drive you around?  Seeing where the faster drivers do it helps a lot- more than data acq- since you also feel what they are doing.  

Seat time, seat time, seat time. Travel, hit nearby regions, local schools and test n tunes generally offer a lot of extra seat time, but seat time is the best thing you can do. There are a number of books, blogs and now even podcasts dedicated to driver improvement. You can compare your video or even data-logs to that of others to see where they are gaining on you but there is no replacement for seat time. Some of us have to work very hard to be mediocre drivers (this is me), others come by it naturally (spoolpigeon).

As others have said, the problem can vary and seat time/other sets of eyes is really the only answer. 

For example, I tend to over-drive into corners during autocross runs, which loses TONS of time even though it can feel fast. When I ride with truly good drivers, I'm shocked at how much smoother it feels when they beat me by 1+ seconds on a 60sec course. 

Other people will have the opposite problem, so you need to identify what you're doing wrong. An action camera is a great way to get better without a huge cost outlay. I think you can buy a very nice one for ~$200.

Face it,  just like race car drivers,  there are some that are fast and a lot who ae not.

 Just keep trying.  Is all I have.

One thing I have is focus.   On the day put all other things out of your mind.

 For me, I sucked at autocross,   quite fast at track days and shined at ice racing,  Several wins and two class championships.

There was one autocross that I did well at.   It was on an old kart track,   No sea of cones.

I think some people are naturally better at autocross than others, like how some people take to singing easier than others. 

Practice can certainly make you much better though. I have also seen people sort of make a leap out of nowhere too, like they just connected the dots. 

I feel like my fast twitch muscles are just not fast enough for some courses. I did the Evo school, and the drivers were about 1.5 seconds faster than me. Their driving seemed smoother and they were better through the slaloms at staying ahead with their hands. A few weeks later, I did what some of you have recommended here and had a friend who has won some National events drive my car. He put 2 seconds on me and I honestly didn't really learn much. It didn't feel that different in the car, although he was pushing the car into terminal understeer more than me, sort of beating the car harder. This was years ago in a STU-prepped M3.

A few thoughts:

1. If you're consistently running with other people in the same car, solo storm could be a great way to compare data. It isn't cheap though, and all parties would have to have the setup.

2. The other cars could be a higher prep level - some serious autocrossers spend serious coin on dampers that are street class legal, as well as super light exhausts, wheels, and the drivers sometimes look like horse jockeys. It all adds up.

3. Ask one of those faster guys to co-drive your car for an event or at least ride along in one of the sessions. They'd likely say yes, and can likely give helpful pointers on slight tweaks to your driving. I've done this before, and it helped me a lot.

4. (especially true of me) knowingly leaving time on the table because certain course elements make me uneasy. For example, I don't like slaloms in my car. I know how to drive them fast, but the loose nature of my car and my mental unwillingness to push through it means I leave time on the table through every slalom. Not to mention actually watching guys put their cars into a guardrail - I don't want to do that to my baby.

1. Take videos. I have used my GoPro for years recording and reviewing every single run. You’ll often find mistakes that you never noticed behind the wheel. Also, share said videos after each event asking for feedback. 

2. Ride with the faster guys and see what they are doing differently. 

3. Get a faster guy to codrive with you. 

4. Put me in the car 

SVreX said:

In reply to trucke :

I don't mind you disagreeing. But I know my limits. I'm 56, and was 45 before I ever tried autocrossing. 

I'm not bad, and I'm certainly better than I was, but there is no way I can do what I could have when I was younger. 

You kinda just described me.  Although 50 and probably 43 on first go around.

For me having a codriver who is a little faster is HUGE.  Most times people plateau because they can't figure out how to be more aggressive in just the places where they need to be.  Someone who has that figured out already can show you, through ride-alongs, video, and data, how they are getting more potential out of your car. 

Case in point, I was at the match tour this weekend too.  I finished 2nd.  Without a codriver I would have finished 1st and been happy.  However my codriver clobbered me by 1.2 seconds and later found another full second in the same conditions in the challenge rounds where I found none.  That's 2.2 seconds gap (holy crap) between two drivers in the same car on that Pitt course, when we usually run within half a second of one another.  Reviewing data and video shows many places I was making significant mistakes, that I would have absolutely zero knowledge of without being able to compare directly to someone else in the same car.