Sometimes I get wistful...

I think about how things are today as compared to the 50's or the 60's for "grassroots" activities.  It's easy to lose sight of how good we have it with loads of aftermarket support, fabulous engineering and performance, well organized and sanctioned events, but still...

I wish The Hive was in a position to have a true "Run Whatcha Brung" sort of thing.  Collect all the unused stuff in your garage (or your friends' garages), throw something together and just have a race for the hell of it.  I know Lemons racing has pretty much taken that role today, but I have a mental image of the starting grid for a GRM Formula Libre event and it's much more interesting than a Lemons grid.  

Maybe it's just me.

We now return to your regularly scheduled programming...

In reply to stroker :

I understand your point, but I have to say that the difference between safety requirements from that time and now accounts for a lot of the increase in cost and complexity.
 

Still, I think safer is better. 

In reply to stroker :

Oh you mean the Challenge.

Stampie said:

In reply to stroker :

Oh you mean the Challenge.

Sort of.  I was thinking about wheel to wheel and more like monoposto or early Can-Am stuff or pre-1965 sports cars...  Although if we agreed to a "Challenge" budget for the builds, that would be a very good thing.

I was lucky to race in the 80s through the late 2000s.  Things were much looser then. EMRA and SCCA were where we played along with some time trial / lapping stuff. Towards the end safety gear was costing more than our entire race budget in the early 90s. The death of DE Sr was a turning point.  I miss the old days but I also miss those that we lost more.   Racing has become gentrified. It is not a bad thing. It just is the evolution of the sport. 

In reply to stroker :

I know just that's the closest thing I can think of.

I read all of burt levy's books. It was a neat look into those days of racing and the culture around it. 

Makes me glad for the organization and safety of today's events though, honestly. 

If youre anywhere near here, there a new hpde style group called motorsports for the masses doing more controlled track days with point by passing and low additional safety gear requirements. May be up your alley. 

So I will be contrary especially on the safety gear.

If you carefully shop closeouts you can buy everything you need from shoes to head and neck device for $750. That's $220 in 1980.

Same goes for a roll cage; I double checked and the SCCA legal cage kit for my Datsun is $1,100 which again is $325 dollars in 1980 money. 

As for run what you brung things have never been better. The Challenge, Lemons etc. plus we have a proliferation of track days. 

As for cars I routinely see race ready (not competitive) race cars for $5000, which if $1,500 in 1980.

Race entry fees (adjusted for inflation) are exactly what they've always been.

I spend $900 - $1000 per race weekend, which equates to the $420 - $450 I was spending in 1989.

Finally with so many opportunities to get on track clubs are more welcoming than ever.

Can-Am rules: tons of creativity plus the day's best drivers. And rad tracks, too: Bridgehampton, Riverside, Laguna Seca. 

But was the racing close?

I just took a minute to check the results from the 1966 season. The most cars to finish on the lead lap during a single race that season? Four. The number of cars to finish on the lead lap at Daytona this past January? Five. 

David S. Wallens said:

Can-Am rules: tons of creativity plus the day's best drivers. And rad tracks, too: Bridgehampton, Riverside, Laguna Seca. 

But was the racing close?

I just took a minute to check the results from the 1966 season. The most cars to finish on the lead lap during a single race that season? Four. The number of cars to finish on the lead lap at Daytona this past January? Five. 

Todays close results due to to BOP?

In reply to NOT A TA :

I think the BOP has definitely tightened up the fields. Are homologated cars the answer? It does keep everyone more or less in the same ZIP code. 

Just for kicks, and I know this is a thread-jack, I just checked the results for a random Trans-Am race: 1970 at Lime Rock.

Exciting, right?

I see just 10 finishers: Parnelli Jones first in his famed Bud Moore Mustang (146 laps), Ed Leslie second (145 laps), Sam Posey third (143 laps) and Jim Hall in fourth (135 laps). I know that Lime Rock is short, but that doesn't sound super-thrilling. (Although, poking around, Road America that year looks like a good one with six cars finishing on the lead lap and 25 cars taking the checker.)

I use to drive to the track pay $100 and be able to drive on track in test and tune sessions from noon until 5:00.  A helmet was all that was required.  

This is me back in those days:  In fact, this was at a test and tune session at Louden NH from the early 90's.  I did so many laps that day I had to drive down the street to get another tank of fuel.  

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I think part of what made those races exciting was that the cars weren't as fast or sophisticated as they are now. I used to love watching the cars literally drifting through the same corners lap after lap because of the tires available.  A well sorted Pro-Touring car of today can probably match or beat the best track times of those old Trans Am cars even with one of us knucklehead wanna be race car drivers piloting.  Pretty sure I was on the hill as a 12 year old watching that '70 TA race at Lime Rock dreaming of the day I could get on that track. Luckily some dreams come true.

You guys are looking at Pro series.  My original thought on this was a yearning for technical creativity with a minimum of rule structure just for fun.  Can you imagine what The Hive grid would look like for a "Can-Am" race done with Challenge rules...?

In reply to dean1484 :

$100 back then (1985 to 1990) was the equivalent of $205 to $245 today. We are having a track day in November entry is $180 for 2 hours of track time................the only gear you need is a helmet.  Seems the same to me.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Is that truly unlimited track time or are there sessions for different cars classes?

We use to have 5 hours of unlimited track time on and off when ever you want.  No flag people no nothing.  I am not sure if there was even an ambulance at the track (there must have been).  It was up to the drivers to be responsible and not drive like idiots.  The track manager was watching and if you even remotely acted like an idiot you were off the property.  We had Indy cars mixed up with track cars and street cars.  AND we never had a problem.    I miss those days.

It was kind of a zoo but at the same time it was great.  There were even privet lessons / coaching happening as well while others were testing setups and others scrubbing in tires.  We would often run in a new motor or bring a prepped car up to bring it up to temp and initial setting of the rings if it got a rebuild / refresh.  There were pro's and people like me all mixed up having a great time.  A friend of mine often would coach clients in 911's.  He one time asked me to please not pass his client in there 911 with my 924s.  (Did not want to have him quit and walk away) That was a really funny day.  I don't think that this kind of thing could ever happen now days. If for nothing else people seem to take track days to seriously.  Hell we had relay races one time!!!  (this was at the old Bryer track)  

The mood at the track changed as time went on.  When people are showing up with call halers for a time trial and treating it like they are are setting up for the Indy 500 it was time for me to move on.  These were the same people that cared more about how cars looked than driver skill.  I show up with an open trailer and a car that has its share of battle scars and you are treated like a lepper and god forbid you pass them.  They start protesting or crying to the stuarts that you are using ilegle air in your tires or something.   It really became a spending race to the bottom in terms of fun and not a car race.  The old days it was fun and light hearted.  The last couple times I went to SCCA events people were taking it way to serious. 

And don't even get me started with the Spec Miata crowd.  To me spec miata ruined it for so many with the basic attitude that no one else should be allowed on the track with them.  Excuse me?  I happen to like my porsche 944 or my Rx7.   I am sure this was really a select few but after a couple years of their crap I just stopped racing.  It became no fun having them on track with us.   It is a big reason I have never driven a miata and I never will. I don't want to support that crowd and its attitude towards others.   To this day when I see a Miata I just get discussed as it reminds me of the suckey times I had at the track with the spec Miata crowd. 

The racing in Can-Am was actually pretty bad. Every season was dominated by one team, car failures were pretty common. Some of the most iconic cars never finished a race. The cars were spectacular, the racing was not.

I have mixed feelings about BOP racing. It definitely gives us close racing, but where's the drive to push the capabilities? If you make your car faster, you just get more handicapping. If you fall behind, the BOP will bring you up to par.

If I was looking to build a grassroots race car, though, I'd be really tempted by Lemons. It's wide open for crazy ideas.

And if you guys miss real open track days, move to Colorado. High Plains Raceway holds them regularly. Usually fully open but sometimes they'll split the group into two. $120 for 4 hours or $180 for 8. Thursday nights are $120 for 4 hours as well. Or you can get a discount punch card that will save you up to 22%. Or a freakin' season pass! Anyhow, Denver area drivers have it good.

In reply to dean1484 :

You know that most Miatas are not Spec Miatas, right? There have always been people who take racing seriously and people who don't. Focus on those you want to spend time with, ignore the rest. And if you don't like rules, run with Lemons instead of SCCA.

Keith Tanner said:

Focus on those you want to spend time with, ignore the rest. And if you don't like rules, run with Lemons instead of SCCA.

Lemons has plenty of rules, it's just that they're not codified into a written rulebook.

But not the sort of rules that say you can only run a turbo hybrid v6 with very specific bore spacing. Want to put a crappy Cadillac engine into Miata? No problem. 

In reply to dean1484 :

Keith beat me to it but it's easy enough to find a happy place.

I've settled  on vintage; sure there are some serious guys but most folks are there to have a good time.

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to dean1484 :

You know that most Miatas are not Spec Miatas, right? There have always been people who take racing seriously and people who don't. Focus on those you want to spend time with, ignore the rest. And if you don't like rules, run with Lemons instead of SCCA.

I realize that. As I said previously it was probably a small percentage of the group that successfully made the whole group suck. The old bad apple will spoil a bushel thing.
 

I miss racing. But I don't miss the E36 M3 show it turned in to over the 25 years I participated in it. 

Just remember that you're the one who's equating a few annoying people with all Miatas. Those guys could have been driving anything. Their behavior was not a reflection of what they drive. Cutting yourself from ever driving or owning one of the most popular track cars in the world because of that is only hurting yourself.

I had problems at a track day one time with a bunch of formula cars. They were slower than I was, but apparently also not equipped with mirrors because they would never give me a point-by. I mean, why would a modified cheap car be faster than their purpose-built racing machines? Does this mean that all formula car drivers are complete shiny shiny happy people and I will never be involved in them in any way? Of course not. I don't want to go on track with those specific guys again, but it wasn't the cars.

In reply to dean1484 :

Not to belabor it but some if the reasons you've listed is why I went to vintage. For the most part people are less serious; it's easy to find a class where people are simply out to have fun. There are classes that people are every bit as serious about as they would be at the RunOffs but it's easy enough to avoid those.

Modern spec classes for production cars, be it A-sedan Spec-RX or Spec Miata, start out has cheap fun but once they go National all hell breaks loose. 

My F500 is totally outgunned in the wings and slick group but I manage to pick off the stragglers so it's fun.  My advice is find an oddball car you like driving and go have fun.

Dean - The fun is still there, especially for those of in New England. 

I mean, right in your back yard you can come run with MassTuning @ Palmer/Thompson/Club/Canaan for $300 or something.  I know it's not open track (there's often too many people for that until the very end of the day, sometimes), but you'll still get 2.5 hours of track time per day, and the group is awesome.  I instruct with a few clubs, but I always have the most chill day at the track with friends with MT. 

A Palmer open lapping day is like $350 (through them), and that's 4 hours of track time (every other half hour), and clubs like Dynosaur will often open the last hour or two at just about every track they visit.   You can find open track days with lesser known clubs like North East Corvair Council (NECC) who do a run group for the first hour (so you have less traffic on your recce laps) then open it up, etc.  

For the record, $400 would be about $121 in 1980 dollars. 

Trawl motorsportsreg and you'll find something close and cheap.  But I'd highly recommend hitting up a MT event.  They're just such a good vibe.