Maybe you should be looking at an E36 M3 for HPDE duty.
Maybe you should be looking at an E36 M3 for HPDE duty.
In reply to Mr_Clutch42:
Yeah, that is probably the smartest way to do it. I just dont know where to buy a prepped car, I'll have to ask around on the NASA facebook pages and stuff, I guess.
There is THIS car for sale, but price seems steep and its probably a short-nose.
http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/1454956?ad_cid=9
I like the color tho!
Desmond wrote: I just dont know where to buy a prepped car, I'll have to ask around on the NASA facebook pages and stuff, I guess.
Every race series and organizing body has a classifieds section on their bulletin board.
It sounds like you haven't even started doing HPDE yet, and you're already thinking Spec Racing. I'm not telling you to forget that goal (it's a great goal!), but one step at a time. Get used to doing HPDE and going fast in any decent car. You do not need to do HPDE in the same platform you eventually race.
Edit: I don't think I'd pay that much for that car. I don't feel like listing all the specifics, but there are a lot of ???'s raised by the ad. And it's a moot point anyway. Just get yourself something to do HPDE in for now. Worry about a full spec car later.
In reply to Beer Baron: You're right. I've done Wintercross and Autocross a few times now, but I haven't been able to do HPDE yet since the Miata in stock form isn't capable (hardtop safety stuff.)
You guys are totally right, I guess there isn't a whole lot of reason for me to be worrying and planning about something so far out in the future. I get like this when I start something new, I just wanna have it all planned out and just go crazy with it. Thanks for all the advice guys.
racingjunk.com is a good source for Spec Miatas and others.
There are always some Spec Miatas on track at the Mitty, so HSR must welcome them.
Don't doubt it. I haven't been to the Mitty since 2005 and won't likely go back. HSR isn't a vintage racing organization, per se. At least not like most. They run a couple of groups with old looking cars, but that's about as "vintage" as they get. They are also much more tolerant of aggressive driving and bent metal than most vintage organizations, which is why I'm not particularly interested in racing with them again.
Desmond wrote:z31maniac wrote:I am not talking about the future, I am talking about now. I could run HPDEs right now in another car, (350z) and spend maybe 500-600 on brakes, tires, fluids right now. I already plan to put a roll bar in the Miata, for DD safety sake. That alone is about 1200 bucks (combining the costs from before). Throw a hardtop on top of that and I'm sitting at 2200 bucks. For spec racing? Thats a very insignificant amount, sure. But for running simple HPDE events? Thats a bit ridiculous. Sure the hardtop is a one-time expense, as is the rollbar, but its just a pain considering most other cars, you simply throw some tires and brakes on them and you're good to go for HPDE.Desmond wrote: Plus, I would have to pick up a hard top to run HPDE events in the meantime (expensive...)I'll be honest, I quit reading your post here and didn't read any other responses. If you think $1k for a hardtop is "expensive," you don't have the scratch for regular HPDE's and car building. Even in my 1.6 Miata at my super cheap local track, once you figure in gas/fees/consumables/food/water, etc. $500+ per weekend. Save up the money for the next year and just buy an already built car.
Where can you get tires, brakes, fluids for a 350Z for $600? Trackworthy pads and fresh rotors and brake fluid will use all of that up.
Tires will not be cheap for 17s or 18s.
I think you're underestimating the cost of prepping and using a car for track work.
You can also go to race-cars.com and check out chump car and 24 hours of LeMons classifieds for race cars.
In reply to Desmond:
Please do not take my "slow down" advice to discourage you from your goal of spec racing. That is a great goal. Aim for it. Stick with it. You will hit it. Just saying to focus on where you are at now. You can figure out the spec car thing later.
If you do want to get into spec racing, the thing to focus on is tightening the nut behind the wheel. Recognize that you have a lot to learn and the opportunity to surround yourself with people with the knowledge. Go to HPDE. Check your ego at the door. Listen and learn.
(And I fully support using a Miata as a first car to start doing HPDE in.)
I just picked up a track prepped miata (essentially spec miata specifications but with a few minor differences) fully caged, etc for 5250, less miles than that too. They're on craigslist all the time.
z31maniac wrote:Desmond wrote:Where can you get tires, brakes, fluids for a 350Z for $600? Trackworthy pads and fresh rotors and brake fluid will use all of that up. Tires will not be cheap for 17s or 18s. I think you're underestimating the cost of prepping and using a car for track work.z31maniac wrote:I am not talking about the future, I am talking about now. I could run HPDEs right now in another car, (350z) and spend maybe 500-600 on brakes, tires, fluids right now. I already plan to put a roll bar in the Miata, for DD safety sake. That alone is about 1200 bucks (combining the costs from before). Throw a hardtop on top of that and I'm sitting at 2200 bucks. For spec racing? Thats a very insignificant amount, sure. But for running simple HPDE events? Thats a bit ridiculous. Sure the hardtop is a one-time expense, as is the rollbar, but its just a pain considering most other cars, you simply throw some tires and brakes on them and you're good to go for HPDE.Desmond wrote: Plus, I would have to pick up a hard top to run HPDE events in the meantime (expensive...)I'll be honest, I quit reading your post here and didn't read any other responses. If you think $1k for a hardtop is "expensive," you don't have the scratch for regular HPDE's and car building. Even in my 1.6 Miata at my super cheap local track, once you figure in gas/fees/consumables/food/water, etc. $500+ per weekend. Save up the money for the next year and just buy an already built car.
You dont need the absolute best to run HPDE, and I guarantee I can find those parts for that price for the Miata.
I guess I'll stick with the Miata, it just seems like for right now, there are much easier cars to daily drive/do HPDE stuff in. Im sure the Miata will be awesome once its set up right, but like I mentioned, I gotta pick up a hardtop and some kind of rollbar. Thanks for all the advice guys, I know there are plenty here that have done this type of thing before, and I appreciate the patience and willingness to share your knowledge with me. Motorsport can be a difficult thing to get into if you dont have any friends or family that do it.
In reply to Desmond:
All the tracks I run at in Nor-cal/so-cal don't require a hardtop, you just have to run with the top down and have a rollbar (no beauty bars!). Go out to an HPDE and learn how slow you really are and then worry about upgrades (just take care of basic maintenance and bleed/swap your brake fluid!), I guarantee you'll have a blast.
And no ... you don't want to skimp on your roll bar
http://youtu.be/qMmjaaSQP08
z31maniac wrote:Desmond wrote:Where can you get tires, brakes, fluids for a 350Z for $600? Trackworthy pads and fresh rotors and brake fluid will use all of that up. Tires will not be cheap for 17s or 18s. I think you're underestimating the cost of prepping and using a car for track work.z31maniac wrote:I am not talking about the future, I am talking about now. I could run HPDEs right now in another car, (350z) and spend maybe 500-600 on brakes, tires, fluids right now. I already plan to put a roll bar in the Miata, for DD safety sake. That alone is about 1200 bucks (combining the costs from before). Throw a hardtop on top of that and I'm sitting at 2200 bucks. For spec racing? Thats a very insignificant amount, sure. But for running simple HPDE events? Thats a bit ridiculous. Sure the hardtop is a one-time expense, as is the rollbar, but its just a pain considering most other cars, you simply throw some tires and brakes on them and you're good to go for HPDE.Desmond wrote: Plus, I would have to pick up a hard top to run HPDE events in the meantime (expensive...)I'll be honest, I quit reading your post here and didn't read any other responses. If you think $1k for a hardtop is "expensive," you don't have the scratch for regular HPDE's and car building. Even in my 1.6 Miata at my super cheap local track, once you figure in gas/fees/consumables/food/water, etc. $500+ per weekend. Save up the money for the next year and just buy an already built car.
If someone knows where to get good track tires for the 350Z for $600 let me know because that is ridiculously less than what I paid when I used to own that car, lol..
Rupert wrote: Further I can't imagine any part with a BMW roundel being as reasonably priced as Miata parts. However I haven't done any real research to verify that opinion. While subcontracting for BMW for several years I never found any of their parts priced similar to a Japanese produced or branded equivalent part.
You haven't shopped E30 parts. I compared many replacement parts between Miata and also 944 when I was looking at Spec series. E30's are shockingly cheap, especially consumables. Since the Spec E30 is basically left stock in the engine bay, stuff doesn't break that would cost money. The cars are tanks. I've hardly had to do much more than change the oil and replace brake pads since building mine.
Building a race car is not cheap. It will cost you around ten grand no matter what you choose. My donor car was $1100, we welded the cage in ourselves (won't do that again) and even painted it and it still came in around nine grand with a used race seat and some other internet buys. Then you still need the suit, HANS, belts every 5 years, etc. Racing isn't cheap. But, there is also nothing like it. 
Just remember, the faster the car the more it will cost to run (tires, brakes, clutches, fuel). It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car once a year.
ddavidv wrote: Just remember, the faster the car the more it will cost to run (tires, brakes, clutches, fuel). It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car once a year.
This may be the quote of the year for low income racers.
Desmond wrote: You dont need the absolute best to run HPDE, and I guarantee I can find those parts for that price for the Miata. I guess I'll stick with the Miata, it just seems like for right now, there are much easier cars to daily drive/do HPDE stuff in. Im sure the Miata will be awesome once its set up right, but like I mentioned, I gotta pick up a hardtop and some kind of rollbar. Thanks for all the advice guys, I know there are plenty here that have done this type of thing before, and I appreciate the patience and willingness to share your knowledge with me. Motorsport can be a difficult thing to get into if you dont have any friends or family that do it.
Just Carbotechs and rotors for a Miata will run you roughly $500.
A set of 205/50/15 R888s will be $600.
Total for XP10s and C-tek rotors would be about $390. Not $500.
As far as rollbar, I was going to go with the one of the HardDog ones, I've heard they are both SCAA and NASA approved, but I'll have to double check. I know things can vary by region sometimes.
And I definitely agree with you David. Driving slow cars fast isnt just fun and cheaper, its also safer in alot of ways. More speed = more opportunity for injury, I believe.
BTW I am located in Utah. The track in question is Miller Motorsports Park. I know NASA runs out there, and I am pretty sure SCAA runs out there too. Already been to multiple NASA events to watch and help out.
Oh how is space inside the E30? The more I consider the idea, the more I like it...
I have been down this path. Did a bunch of stuff with the MINI...ended up a showroom stock C car. Hit a wall, woops.
Started over and started building a specE30. Bought lots of parts...life happened.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have listened to my racer buddies and just bought a used spec miata.
Yup they are slow, but they are cheap. Don't worry your not going to win, or even podium.
But you will get to do the 2nd best thing in motorsports..you will pass another driver in an equal or even a better car.
The addiction starts there and then...it all just time and money.
The E30 is a giant greenhouse on wheels. Room aplenty in the interior, and even more if you do NASCAR style door bars (I didn't--I foolishly wanted to retain my side windows since I have an open trailer). Extra bonus points if you get a 4 door, as it has much useful extra storage and access.
Though SM will always be more popular, the BMW route allows you to use the car for BMWCCA events should the SE30 thing lose favor. The E30 is such a popular car in BMW circles it will always have a market. The same can't be said of a lot of other failed spec series cars (RX-7, Neon, SE-R).
accordionfolder wrote: I just picked up a track prepped miata (essentially spec miata specifications but with a few minor differences) fully caged, etc for 5250, less miles than that too. They're on craigslist all the time.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/pros-vs-schmoes/
I think this is an important article to keep in mind. Weight savings is free, but once a car is built, you'll have a hell of a time getting those last bits of weight out of the car. Prep-work seems to be key for spec miata, and it is simple enough once you've worked on prep and driver ability to plop down $6k for a spec built motor if you feel you are at that level. But there is no point in plopping down said $6k if the car you started with isn't at the limit of the rules to begin with.
I might get into spec miata next year as we currently have a brand new track 15 minutes from me, plus we are getting two more world class facilities in the southern part of the province. If you are an amateur racer and NOT in spec miata,you need to think about your priorities IMO. The racing is great, the support by Mazda is insane, and even in Alberta where there was NO spec miatas (or extremely few) as of two years ago, there is a huge amount with more showing up all the time.
And it's so damn cheap compared to rallying it blows my mind!
Keep in mind too that no matter what car you buy, it is going to be faster than you are at the start. It doesn't matter what prep work has been done, what the shape of the motor, etc., the best way to improve time is to improve the driver. You want to make sure it is safe first, and fast second. And if you go to a driver's school, you want a reliable, safe car that you don't have to worry about.
One of my favorite track cars that I owned was an Improved Touring '85 MR2. It was not only fun to drive, but was very easy on tires and brakes. Even so, I usually budgeted about $500 per weekend, even for HPDEs. That included the consumables, and also travel, entry fees, lodging and food. And I drove it to most events as I didn't have a truck. And that my friend is a cheap weekend of racing.
In reply to racerdave600: Wow, autocross really is the king of cheap racing.
You make it sound like you already have the Miata, is that so?
As for other cars being able to run circles around it... my dad and I did a track day with his Miata and WRX. The WRX is his bone stock DD. Out of the box, it was running about 3 seconds/lap faster than the Miata. But driving the Miata was way more fun.
I would honestly look more towards some iteration of E36 for an HPDE car at this point. They're just strait up newer and better, and there is virtually no price difference to buy in. Parts on an E36 will be basically the same as an E30, and fewer will need to be replaced.
Mr_Clutch42 wrote: In reply to racerdave600: Wow, autocross really is the king of cheap racing.
Keep in mind that depending upon the event, entry fees can be $100 to $300 plus. Add in about $100 for lodging if you split a decent room for 2 to 3 nights, plus new tires every 4 or 5 events ($600 a set at the time), pads and rotors, brake fluid, gas to get there and back, plus at least a tank on track, and it adds up quickly. If you break something, that's an added expense that you would need to budget separately.
Back when we ran the old Speedvision Cup, our team expense not counting car related consumables or damage, was about $15k per weekend for comparison.
Beer Baron wrote: You make it sound like you already have the Miata, is that so? As for other cars being able to run circles around it... my dad and I did a track day with his Miata and WRX. The WRX is his bone stock DD. Out of the box, it was running about 3 seconds/lap faster than the Miata. But driving the Miata was way more fun. I would honestly look more towards some iteration of E36 for an HPDE car at this point. They're just strait up newer and better, and there is virtually no price difference to buy in. Parts on an E36 will be basically the same as an E30, and fewer will need to be replaced.
Yeah, I own a '99 Miata right now, dark green with a tan top (grandpa status ). It is a lot of fun to drive, I've already taken it to a few autocross events and so far its been a very easy car to drive. Even when it slides on you, its easy to catch and obvious when its doing so.
Autocross is great fun, but working the course is rough work in the blistering sun, and if you are dedicated, it will take up your entire saturday. HPDE / Spec events seem much more relaxed, where you run your class, and then you have downtime between other classes to just chill and take care of your car.
Speaking of the E36, I dont know if its a local thing or a regional thing, but the NASA group here has a "spec 325i" class that is beginning to gain some traction. I always wanted an E36 M3, but maybe that class will grow enough to be another option to consider by the time I reach a level where I can race in a spec class. If parts are really not much more expensive than the E30...
Thanks again guys, I really appreciate all the input!
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