Statement on George Floyd

tuna55 said:

Marjorie Suddard said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

I've thought a lot about my out-of-bounds reply to you, and have decided that I need to do what our mods would tell me to do if they saw that post, and take a step away from the board for a cooling off period. 

And yes, what we posted was obviously divisive. Not intentionally so, though we knew there was a possibility there would be blowback. The charitable donation was something we felt was necessary to give meaning to our words--and to help fight the problem. We're not in a position to give away bunches of money or run off loads of readers; we are in a position to speak and be heard, though. So there it is.

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie

Just a note. I have always understood our value systems to be wildly different, and that's fine, we can still be friends. But "Die in a fire"? That was you? That's as hate filled as it gets. I'm not sure I can be friends with so much hate.

 

Then you simultaneously called your statement divisive and also a statement of unity. It cannot be both.

Their decision to support BLM and donate to SPLC is intended to be unifying behind the cause and bring a greater spotlight to it.  

the nature of people being shiny happy people and racists has turned it into a divisive message for anyone who doesn't agree. 

in short

they made their unifying intentions known and as a result knew it would be alienating and divisive for part of their readership. 

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

ProDarwin said:

Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

Thanks GRM, you guys are doing your best in a E36 M3ty world right now and while things are never perfect we all can seek to improve each day.  None of us say or do the right thing every time but if our overall intentions are good and we learn from our mistakes, lets try to cut one another some slack.

This was a challenging thread to read.  I stand with the GRM family and I am dismayed to see the reactions of some in response to it. Silence is complicity.   Being an ally means standing up to those who share your power and privilege and risk angering those who don’t agree with you.  It’s a noble act, and I am sure that the readers of this thread who represent marginalized and oppressed groups feel supported and loved. 

GRM has done some excellent work to signal inclusiveness in the sport and hobby we love.  It’s clear you work to be allies (I prefer the term accomplice, though, because you are working to dismantle a system that is unjust).  

I am proud of your response and proud to be one of your dorks.  

Rob

FWIW, my own quick take. 

My subscription and donation money to GRM have nothing to do with my politics - I'm just paying for a product (magazine/forum/community) that I enjoy. Once I have paid for the product, that money isn't mine any more, and what GRM or the GRM owners/staff do with it is fully up to them (I don't care at all, as long as the organization is at least tacitly doing something positive and not blatantly criminal or violent). I have good friends on both far ends of the political spectrum. They're still my friends, even if some of them are idiots and I may disagree with their ideals (even strongly). 

Every one of us supports hundreds of businesses every day that are owned by people or organizations that support causes that are not what me or you may support. You think you know know where your money goes when you give it to Summit Racing? or to WeatherTech? or to your local gas station? or to the dozens of small-operation car parts fabricators you buy stuff from? That company you buy your billet camber plates from could just as easily be part of the Chinese Government, or a fabricator who gives money to the Klan or to ISIS or whatever. Like you know. You don't ask every vendor where they're spending the money you send them (and they wouldn't tell you anyhow). So, good on GRM for being transparent, even if it may not have been the best idea in a practical sense (for reasons obvious in this thread). 

As to the actual politics and current events in question - I'll be happy to talk about that over a beer in person (post-COVID, of course); I come to GRM to talk about cars and get away from current events, so the political leanings of the forum members here is of no interest to me whatsoever (hence my general absence from OT even though I'm on this forum hours per day).  To those who may say I'm  "silent and complicit" by not talking about it on GRM forum - this is simply not the venue where I go to talk politics. I prefer to E36 M3 in my bathroom, not in my garage. 

tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

I think it is likely a worthy exercise in reflection to consider why you don’t like such groups.  Why do they make you uncomfortable or angry?  To what degree do they challenge your privilege and how does that inform your response to them?

I don’t know you at all  I’m not calling you a racist   I am acknowledging that I have worked through this process in my life as a cis-gendered, heterosexual, white male of privilege   I’ve learned that although I don’t consider myself to be racist, I am a product of a society that actively teaches and practices systemic racism   Therefore, I may indeed have been racist without ever intending to cause harm  

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.  I have to be better than that if I want real change, and I’ve been given the opportunity to do so.  I’ve been humbled by it and I have grown to be better.

Rob

ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

I think it is likely a worthy exercise in reflection to consider why you don’t like such groups.  Why do they make you uncomfortable or angry?  To what degree do they challenge your privilege and how does that inform your response to them?

i don’t know you at all  I’m not calling you a racist   I am acknowledging that I have worked through this process in my life as a cis-gendered, heterosexual, white male of privilege   I’ve learned that although I don’t consider myself to be racist, I am a product of a society that actively teaches and practices systemic racism   Therefore, I may indeed have been racist without ever intending to cause harm  

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.

 

To be totally fair here, I never mentioned BLM, he did. I simply tried to be thorough by quoting both groups he mentioned. Also, I gave several good reasons why I cannot support SPLC, and none of them have anything to do with comfort or anger.

ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

 

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.  I have to be better than that if I want real change, and I’ve been given the opportunity to do so.  I’ve been humbled by it and I have grown to be better.

Rob

 

Really powerful statement here. Thanks for sharing and for caring. One of my friends was born on Baffin Island. They sure need as many qualified and helpful people up there as possible. ( not that I'm suggesting you move to the arctic circle). 

riffing off what you said. I was talking to an old employee of mine about this. He's an Ethiopian refugee. Parents moved him here as a child. His dad was a college professor and persecuted I one of many regime changes. Anyways. He goes on about blind spots and biases. And I'm taken aback because I'd have thought he was one person who had little. And he does. We all do. It's acknowledging them and working to understand others that is the most powerful here.  Don't be colorblind. Be accepting.  Celebrate others stories.  It was his daughter who called him out most recently. He told his son to not throw like a girl and that hurt her. 

Mr_Asa said:

ProDarwin said:

Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

Mr_Asa said:

ProDarwin said:

Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

That's Tonya Harding. 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

Mr_Asa said:

ProDarwin said:

Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

Pretty sure Tonya Harding would be the first to take a knee. 

Edit: Dangit! Sniped by mnsdm. Damn you!

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I have not now, nor will I ever, feel the need to say I'm not racist or prejudiced. Talk is cheap, actions are what matters. This will probably be the only time I speak of this.

Anger doesn't solve this. Looting doesn't solve this. Rioting doesn't solve this and attacking everyone in a very emotional way really doesn't solve this.

It's mission creep. For those that don't know what that means here's Google's say in it "a gradual shift in objectives during the course of a military campaign, often resulting in an unplanned long-term commitment.​​​​​​". The idea behind all this is to be inclusive and not divisive, everyone is equal, everyone is included, everyone is on the same page.

None of that is helped by the near constant anger being throw around all the time now. People are mad and when they can't find enemies to attack.....they are making them. 

This is not the way

The reaction here just illustrates how important it is to take a public position.

Thanks again. I'm proud to be here. I'll be ordering more dork stickers to show my support. 

BTW, we're ordering this. 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

maybe i could have said "and/or" instead of "and" and it would have been better or not mentioned SPLC. 

but, a bunch of people are getting their E36 M3 twisted about where money was donated to by GRM and it was done in support of BLM. so i mentioned the two together. 

and yes, those who are staying silent are being complictly racist. 

Just to be incredibly clear, you are telling me, based on posts I have made here, that I am a racist. Right?

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

 

Ending relationships and not hanging around them and/or not empowering them are actions. Actions in the right direction.

In reply to tuna55 :

never called you a racist. 

i said those who stay silent and unsupportive of the BLM movement and choose to not speak for it are being complicity racist. 

the point is to say; "hey, now is the time to stand up and say, whats going on isn't ok" because by not being willing to just say that... not even act upon it... just say that or something like it.. yeah... that's supporting the status quo and its complicit racism.

some people are showing no support for the message GRM was pushing out and just wanna be angry about how they donated money. 

Those people are shiny happy people and are being complicitly racist.. intended or not. 

if you wanna complain just about SPLC and are supportive of the GRM message, then so be it.. i think those people are jerks and kinda being shiny happy people.

tuna55 said:

spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

maybe i could have said "and/or" instead of "and" and it would have been better or not mentioned SPLC. 

but, a bunch of people are getting their E36 M3 twisted about where money was donated to by GRM and it was done in support of BLM. so i mentioned the two together. 

and yes, those who are staying silent are being complictly racist. 

Just to be incredibly clear, you are telling me, based on posts I have made here, that I am a racist. Right?

It may be really important to distinguish between individual racism and systemic racism here.  Few people aspire to be individual racists.  Many people who have power (from things such as skin colour, education, wealth, health, sex, gender, among others) benefit from systemic racism.  Benefiting from systemic racism probably means you are "racist" in that your beliefs or actions may harm others, even if you don't intent to be "racist".  The good news is that one can learn to deconstruct systemic racism and to help make things better.

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

 

Ending relationships and not hanging around them and/or not empowering them are actions. Actions in the right direction.

That is my point.  When I was silent about their actions, I was complicit. They felt empowered by my silence. 

In reply to ZOO (Forum Supporter) :

Possibly, and I see your point.

My point is actions speak louder than words ever can. I can, and have, crushed discrimination with action rather than words and found it works better.

RALLYRS said:

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

 

If you are speaking out against ANTIFA, then you are FA.

Andy Ngo isn't a journalist.  He's a fascist who makes a living out of twisting reality and posting lies on the internet.  He's constantly posting pictures and videos of violence on Twitter and labelling it "ANTIFA" even when it clearly is not that.

RE: Zoo and Spacecadet

I wish to honestly try here. I do not support SPLC, and take issue with every donation to them, and their status as a charity. Depending on how I read the words there, that either makes me a racist or a shiny happy person or perhaps both.

I believe we understand racism differently, and hate differently. I believe that we could have a fruitful discussion about this, but likely not here. It would probably have to be in person. This word has been misused that the terms have to be explicitly redefined. As for now, one of us is asking how much Tuesday weighs, and the other is emphatically answering 45 inches.

I said it on page 1. I aspire to teach my children to love everyone, and acknowledge everyone has varying levels of history working for and against them, and to never assume so based on skin color, eye color, blood type or anything else. I hope they do better than I have.

As for this, I am appalled that a call for the end of hate ends with... more hate. If you're telling someone to die in a fire, calling people names (shiny happy people is a name here I think, but I don't know which one), throwing a brick at someone or something like that, then you're fighting hate with hate. I see peaceful protests and am grateful. I love the free hugs guy that seems to show up at every protest. More love all around is required. Name calling, accusations and riots are not going to get us anywhere.

This isn't a deal breaker?  I'm not so sure about that. 

I'm glad my dollars, opinions and thoughts on this do not matter to those involved.  I'd postulate they do by your response alone, but you said it's nothing to you.  I have to believe you just like I have to believe China is a "democratic republic," and ANTIFA is anti-facist (but the hallmark of facism is using violence to crush dissent).   I guess I should also believe the SPLC is a defender of race, equality and justice even though their entire history speaks otherwise, because they say so. 

I would love nothing more than to go back in time and this never have become a topic here and to go back to talking about the piece of crap cars in my garage and driveway.  I'm having a real hard time with that after finding out my opinions and thoughts don't matter, aren't valid, and I need to be onboard with the SPLC.  I'm not onboard with their hate and vitriol and divisiveness. 

This constant division within our society is the problem. 

And I have really bad news for you.  If we have martial law what happened to George Floyd will happen to many more people of all colors and ethnic backgrounds.  While racism might have played a role, the real problem is having a large under-trained, over weaponnized police force that is being used as a weapon in our society by evil people.  The police are put in a terrible position by these people and forced to decide between behaving like this or feeding their own families. If you didn't learn that from the Corona lockdowns, you weren't watching.  In this case we may have had one awful racist cop murdering a fellow man.  This wasn't the first time this person did something evil.  Why was this person still an officer of the law?  You don't just wake up one day and kneel on someone's neck until dead for fun.  It's not human nature.  This behavior was learned, taught, and worst of all CONDONED over a long period of time. 

But donating money to organizations that beat the racist drum daily, give money for bail to arsons, vandals, thieves, and those that execute violent attacks on their fellow man is the answer?  I think not.  Then telling me that this donation is being done to right a wrong?  Two wrongs don't make a right, never have and never will. 

I'm fine being here and being an enabler of bad automotive decisions.  I don't mind being enabled into my own bad automotive decisions either.  I cannot be happy, in anyway, being an enabler of organizations and persons that do evil on other human beings though.  That's kind of a deal breaker for me. 

If by definition what is going on in this country in all our major cities is good, and ANTIFA is righteous, and the SPLC is a bastion of good, then I'm probably the village idiot.  If what is going on is evil, ANTIFA is the antithesis of what they claim and the SPLC is a greedy profiteering scam (one of the articles I linked flat out says it's a scam; which it is), that doesn't make things any better.  But if the concensus here is that ANTIFA, the SPLC, and the mobs destroying our cities are righteous and offer more value than I do, then I gotta move on.  Somethings are just more important than cars. 

And honestly calling me a conservative or liberal in the context of the US political system is just downright offensive.  Let's look at major issues:

1)  Abortion, your body your choice.  You decide with your partner, family, leaders etc.  Don't lay your murderous ways at my feet though.

2)  LGBTQ.  Again your body, your choice.  I really don't care.  I don't choose to participate, but that's my choice.

3)  Budget:  Yah conservative as all get out; balance it baby.

4)  Military:  I served 10 years.  I chose to never work in the defense industry after for good reasons.  I also have come to realize this country was never intended to have a large standing military force, because it is too dangerous.

5)  Drugs:  These people need help.  Locking them away in prison is not helpful, unless you are trying to train career criminals.  Prison is like a PhD for crime.  Legalize marijuana.  I wish people were using this more now; less violence more munchies.

6)  Racism.  By and large this is an education and child abuse issue.  It is a taught , learned behavior as pointed out by type Q.  The real issue in our country is that it is MADE into an issue by the fringes to foment hate, anger and violence.  I feel the SPLC is complicit in this and is the problem and not the solution.  I have never seen a racist child, ever.  I've seen racist teens and adults my entire life and seen racist societies.  It was learned.  It is the lowest common denominator of human intelligence and is used as a tool to control and destroy. 

7)  Gun control:  It's a tool.  Learn to use it properly, your life could depend on it.  Also the worlds "shall not be infringed," have absolutely zero to do with hunting.  I should be able to own an M1 Abrams tank and park it in my driveway if I can afford it, as it falls under "arms" as in armaments.  And armed population is far more valuable (and polite) and safe than any standing army. 

Any other major issues you want to know where I stand?  I'm hardly conservative, by any means. 

You clearly know me about as well as you knew the SPLC before you sent them your support.  That is misguided at best.