Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:What's next? A study to determine the wetness of water?
No. The next study will say that wearing a seatbelt is safer than not wearing one...
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:What's next? A study to determine the wetness of water?
No. The next study will say that wearing a seatbelt is safer than not wearing one...
ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:If they'd just done the same test with the V70 interface replicated on a screen, that would have given interesting results.
An interesting parallel here is: use a (small) physical keyboard, then use one on an iPad. Same button layout and approaching similar physical size, but one is touch screen, one is not. Or even use one of these https://www.amazon.com/AGS-Wireless-Projection-Bluetooth-Smartphone/dp/B00MR26TUO/
Try to compose a sentence from memory, then try to copy text from elsewhere.
It's not quite the same, because you are trying to maintain the same position of your fingers for an extended period of time and you're using the tactile feedback to do that. When interacting for a vehicle, it's usually just a short one or two press. A closer parallel would be to say "press G and A on the keyboard".
I agree that touch typing is easier on a small keyboard than an iPad, but I don't find my hands drifting too much with the iPad and I can usually manage it.
Oh I agree its not exactly the same, its just an interesting exercise.
Like a car though, I want to be able to operate something without having to look at it. In fact, I often do when I am sitting in my sim rig. I just need to reach my keyboard to change the view, toggle on driver names, etc. It is very similar to "press G and A on the keyboard". It would be interesting to do the exact same test with a iPad.
When your hands don't drift using an iPad, can you look away from the device while typing? Thats the part I can't do. And in a car I like to look at the road in front of me :)
I wonder how many similar tests have been done by OEMs but in their decision matrix cost outweighed user experience by a significant margin.
How much do you grope around looking for a button in a car? I don't know how much of the experience is driven by feel, but I suspect it's a fairly small amount until you get to the actual feedback of "I felt that I just did that". That's purely physical movement in the case of a button but would a noise work? That's what smartphones do, they'll make a noise and possibly even a vibration. The home "button" on an iPhone is almost creepy how much it feels like an actual button.
Someone on this forum pointed out some human interaction studies from...Honda?...that says that we always look at a button to find it. We don't think we do, but we do. Your muscle memory will get you close but you can't distinguish quickly between two adjacent buttons at arm's length. Steering wheel controls are different, your hand is already located so it's a small relative movement and the controls are often distinguished by texture or size if there are many of them. Not so much the center console, where all the tasks in this test would have been located.
I'd love to have a good talk with an OE human interface person, I think it would be fascinating.
And yeah, I can type on an iPad while looking away, but that's because my hands are located by something else like my forearms. If it were suspended in midair and not on a tabletop it would be a challenge.
Keith Tanner said:Someone on this forum pointed out some human interaction studies from...Honda?...that says that we always look at a button to find it. We don't think we do, but we do. Your muscle memory will get you close but you can't distinguish quickly between two adjacent buttons at arm's length.
I'd love to see the details of this study, or any of the other OEM studies.
In my experience, yes you do always look for a button. The difference is in the case of many physical buttons I can 1) just glance to make sure my hand will land close to it and 2) feel around and get tactile feedback before pressing the button**. Especially in the case of volume and HVAC. You can operate 3 knob or slider + knob HVAC almost blindly, while doing the same with a touchscreen can range from tolerable to terrible. Admittedly automatic control with just a temp setting has done a lot to improve this. With many touch screen designs getting "close" isn't an option, because as soon as you touch the screen you are activating something. So you have to be a lot more accurate with you initial approach.
**The 3G Prius has an interesting "solution" to this. It has a capacitive touch overlap on top of membrane buttons on the wheel controls. The capacitive touch highlights a display on the HUD, so you can "see" what you are about to press before pressing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWZ9SX2tyAc
My own research has resulted in similar conclusions.
Next up:
Do men like to stare at women's boobs?
This, please:
In reply to Woody (Forum Supportum) :
I also find this more than acceptable:
olpro said:I remember a text book used back in college (Applied Experimental Psychology: Human Factors in Engineering Design - 1949) which documented the studies done, largely circa WW-II, on controls and instrument panels on tanks, aircraft, etc. The military was taking farm boys and sticking them into 400mph planes. This book covered issues like digital vs analog, readout location and orientation, colors, etc. The menu based screens we see today are not usable in a moving vehicle and reaction times/accuracy are miserable.
This is no surprise and this was figured out LONG ago. Automotive interior designers never seem to learn. My Mini Cooper is amazing on some issues like pedal feel and steering feedback but the instrument panel is a touch-screen nightmare.
I remember having a similar conversation with a co-worker back in the 80's that had started something along the lines of "wait until they put digital readouts on all the powerplant controls" with the powerplant in question being the one that makes a fast attack submarine fast. My reply was "not gonna happen", arguments were had.
My position was that as an operator, if you're familiar with what's "normal" your eyes only need to scan an analog gauge as opposed to having to read a digital display and then interpret the meaning. I've seen steam ships where the gauges on the main board had been reworked so that the "normal" indicating position at sea was at 12 o'clock, that way anything not pointed straight up was something one should look into. Didn't take a lot of time or thought to scan the board and figure that out.
On the car front, we have two Ford products with touch screens and two others that are more conventional. The Fusion ('13) has fewer actual buttons than the newer Explorer ('17) and is much harder to deal with especially the climate controls. The Explorer is still trickier than I'd like but it's an improvement on the Fusion.
I much prefer buttons and knobs I can change without taking my eyes off the road (my Mustang, my daughter's '17 Focus) but that's not what sells cars these days apparently. To add another level of irony, both the Mustang and Focus are 6 speed sticks and bright red. Hmmmm.
dculberson said:In reply to Woody (Forum Supportum) :
I also find this more than acceptable:
Max heat and almost-max AC simulatenously?
In reply to ProDarwin :
In reply to ProDarwin :
It's this guy's car:
In other news, water is wet...
You all have it wrong. Follow the Jaguar XKE's row of identical toggle switches along the bottom of the dash!
Nothing like flipping the wrong switch at 150 mph!
frenchyd said:You all have it wrong. Follow the Jaguar XKE's row of identical toggle switches along the bottom of the dash!
Nothing like flipping the wrong switch at 150 mph!
I thought the joke was that with those Lucas electrics, it didn't matter which switch you flipped, they all did the same thing: nothing.
First, I really feel the need to say, "No E36 M3, Sherlock."
It also begs the question of just how many things a guy needs to control. 2 or 3 pedals, a shift lever, a steering wheel, a light switch, wiper switch, horn, heater controls and a radio.
The rest is fluff. If I need to toggle through a computer menu for something, I probably don't want it.
Other than seat heaters.
I feel like a lot of this comes out of tablets being the hot thing in like, 2011. Then as big touchscreens started getting integrated into cars years later due to lead time and design work tablets started moving in the direction of mostly being for salespeople and little kids like they are now. But the carmakers are heavily invested in the touchscreen design and the marketing people have really pumped them up. Meanwhile people have quietly parked their tablets due to disuse as they went back to laptops, phones and even desktops in the COVID era.
"Man it's 2011 and I'm watching the video for LMFAO's 'Party Rock' on my iPad then take pictures and edit them with the same device while listening to a bunch of Stomp, Clap, Hey I downloaded through iTunes."
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:What's next? A study to determine the wetness of water?
I know, right. Who thought it was a good idea to have controls in a car that you MUST look at to operate? Pretty dangerous.
I will never own a vehicle equipped with a touch screen. Deal breaker on the ND Miata. There is a mandatory backup camera in those too.
Grope for the buttons in a car? Maybe in a rental, never in one of my vehicles.
Frenchy, how long does it take to remember what the toggle switches do? It is only like 10 of them
My '19 Silverado has traditional buttons / knobs for the HVAC, but a touch screen for the radio (and phone controls). I can operate the HVAC either without looking (temp/fan knobs) or just briefest of a glance. But the radio, even if I'm looking at it, I glance back to the road (!) and then miss the button, etc. Hate it.
I notice that F1 steering wheels have like a billion button and switches, but no touch screens...
Toebra said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:What's next? A study to determine the wetness of water?
I know, right. Who thought it was a good idea to have controls in a car that you MUST look at to operate? Pretty dangerous.
I will never own a vehicle equipped with a touch screen. Deal breaker on the ND Miata. There is a mandatory backup camera in those too.
Grope for the buttons in a car? Maybe in a rental, never in one of my vehicles.
Frenchy, how long does it take to remember what the toggle switches do? It is only like 10 of them
I never learned. Luckily the important things like headlite and turn signals were pretty unique
Never understood the logic of I can get a ticket if I touch my phone screen while driving but using the screen on the dash of my car is somehow ok.
Oh and I just realized that it is ok to control my phone using the touch screen on the dash but touching the screen on the phone is a ticket.
Streetwiseguy said:It also begs the question of just how many things a guy needs to control.
This.
For instance, on a car stereo how often do you regularly change anything except for the volume and station? For the heater controls, how often do you regularly change anything except for the temperature and if it's blowing on your feet or on the windshield? I suspect 90% of all the settings and options offered on touch screens are never used by their owners.
stuart in mn said:Streetwiseguy said:It also begs the question of just how many things a guy needs to control.
For instance, on a car stereo how often do you regularly change anything except for the volume and station?
Any time I am going on a longer drive podcasts, audiobooks and Google Maps all come into play.
dean1484 said:Oh and I just realized that it is ok to control my phone using the touch screen on the dash but touching the screen on the phone is a ticket.
Don't try to assign any logic to those rules. That way lies madness.
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