In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
For WRC they're cracking down on spectators viewing areas with hybrids. This kind of goes into it...
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/fans-targeted-in-major-hybrid-e-safety-campaign/
Somewhere I came across an article a while ago that talked about the cars and driver stuff. If I can find it again, I'll post it. It's fairly interesting. Seems they're approaching it with a keeping things at a distance for now view point as well. And obviously running the safety lights on the cars
Keith Tanner said:
You have made your point clearly and repeatedly. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on the "emergency crews must be prepared" concept. I disagree that "safe" is determined by legislators and insurers as opposed to actual track record, because those paper pushers have to work from SOME data from someone.
But there are consequences, I was just pointing one out. One of the innovators in this kind of racing is shutting down, which means less data for the paper pushers. This is a team that prioritized building a car that minimized the chances of something happening, so they are just the sort we can least afford to lose.
The pit stop was made under NASA's Thunderhill's 25 hour rule set. The lack of helmets, glasses or high-viz jackets or personnel placement during a driver change and work on the car has nothing to do with the fact that it's an EV. I've worked several positions on those pit stops in that race, that's normal.
I really like your point Keith - we are not going to learn about how to manage the risk on paper. The current state of affairs is that there is a big disparity between different tracks - with some literally building chargers on site and some restricting use. I suspect it's not just knowledge of the engineering that is the difference.
One other point I'd like to reiterate is that the use of an EV is not the likely time a fire will occur in LION based chemistries - they most often ignite during or after charging to 100% because that is the time there is the most potential for dendrites to form - piercing the separator and causing short. The tracks that are restricting EVs are more likely to have a fire in the paddock where people are charging cars off 120V/240V camping outlets to go home than with cars running on track. Even so - many cars are designed to vent this energy so as to avoid thermal runaway to nearby cells. Not all designs do this well of course and there have been manufacturing defects (LG/Bolt!) too.
The other time ignition is common is when a pack is literally ripped open in some sort of violent side impact accident with a very high energy point source - for example a telephone pole or when packs are punctured significantly in some way. These are not likely scenarios for a closed circuit track and that's why we don't see fires on cars that are out there today. It's quite a bit different than an ICE - where modifications often do increase the chance of a fire - and then mitigations are required by various tracks, rule sets and sanctioning bodies to limit the impact of those modifications and increase the safety profile for participants.
Gninoked said:
The other time ignition is common is when a pack is literally ripped open in some sort of violent side impact accident with a very high energy point source - for example a telephone pole or when packs are punctured significantly in some way. [b]These are not likely scenarios for a closed circuit track[/b]...
Uhhh... there are people who have been killed in EXACTLY that type of scenario. The instructor at the Disney track comes to mind.
And again, OSHA doesn't care if every single EV that's ever run a track day has done so flawlessly. They care about the one time something goes wrong, that track employees have been properly trained in what to do and have the proper equipment to do that job with.
Having been through OSHA training for my job, I can tell you the first process to any adverse situation for workers is, can it be avoided entirely.
WRC will be doing the real-world testing on the "ripped open in a violent side impact accident" situation. We've also got a couple of decades of Prius history to fall back on, I'm sure a couple of those hit phone poles. Accident reconstruction and investigation would be interesting there.
We had a Miata come through our salvage operation that had gone sideways into a pole, impacted right on the passenger door. Luckily, the driver was alone, but it was a very badly damaged car with a lot of intrusion into the passenger side. That would be pretty close to a worst-case scenario for an EV crash if you're worried about the integrity of the battery pack.
Keith Tanner said:
WRC will be doing the real-world testing on the "ripped open in a violent side impact accident" situation.
Analysis of Group B in 1985 and 1986 suggests that tends to be fatal even without batteries.
Henri Toivonen/Sergio Cresto is the most infamous example, but someone took Marc Surer's a sideways hit in an RS200 that killed his co-driver, and made a GIF out of it, which is easy to find if you're a bit ghoulish.
Note that it only took a few years for Group A cars to be faster than the Bs despite restricted power (undoubtedly partially because the drivers were allowed to sleep more than one or two times per rally, which might be five days long) and the new WRCars make about as much power as the most powerful Bs, when including the electric boost.
Keith Tanner said:
We've also got a couple of decades of Prius history to fall back on, I'm sure a couple of those hit phone poles. Accident reconstruction and investigation would be interesting there.
The Prius isn't a great example, as they were all NiMH batteries until 2015 or so. After that, the plug-in hybrid versions went Li-Ion, but at least some of the base Prius versions still use NiMH (not sure about the newest generation).
In reply to rslifkin :
Their battery packs are also really small, like 5x12x24 inches sort of small, and located up high between the rear wheels where it's REALLY hard to bend/break the pack in a meaningful way.
In reply to Matthew Kennedy :
We can probably make that assumption for most hybrids, that the small size of the batteries makes them easier to protect. On the flip side, they also carry more liquid fuel than a full EV so there might be the fun possible combo of a gasoline fire with a battery inside. Again, I'd want to know more about the accidents that have happened with the various pro race series such as F1 and WEC and see what's happened with them. We've been racing hybrids for a while now - nearly a decade in F1 alone. Formula E has given us some pure battery racing. There should be some good data on what happens in a crash and how to deal with adverse situations.
johndej
SuperDork
4/21/23 11:02 a.m.
Wonder how Toyota feels about this as they've just come on as a high level sponsor for the track. Summit has been the site of an instructor death 9 years ago via a GTO hitting a tree sideways (lots of other items of note there but they're aware).
In reply to CrashDummy :
Oh wow, that's disappointing for E-Ray owners. The bit about not even being allowed to park with the other Corvettes on any NCCC event (which includes fun runs, car shows, etc) in particular seems a little extreme.
Edit - no, the rulebook is specifically for competition. So you just can't park with the others at autoxes etc, which you can only spectate anyhow.
