Takeoffs for HPDE - When's it make sense?

Hi Hive,

Now that I have the first weekend down in the ZL1, the AR1's performed as hoped so that was great news. Thinking ahead and looking at all of the other equipment on track in the advanced run group, the Porsche guys are almost 100% running racing slicks and talking about how amazing they are. Getting supposed 2 weekends easy out of 600 dollar sets of magically grippy tires is starting to sound more and more appealing, especially given recent availability restrictions on these wider DOT tires and the cost associated with them. 

I have run HPDE's for over a decade, the last 7 or 8 years in advanced run groups with all sorts of various organizations. On the flip side, I share a car with an intermediate driver oftentimes to make travel more convenient. With these advanced PTM (traction management) systems on modern sportscars, does that take some of the potential sting out of takeoffs? Anyone feel strongly either way on YAY! or Nay!? 

Not really worried about seconds in an HPDE, but 600 bucks to get me through 2 weekends on super sticky rubber is sounding better with each $1600 set of 200TW/100TW's. 

for the corvette community (the only experience I can speak to) running take-offs has a few things to consider.

1, weather: if you have a chance for rain in the weekend you either have to park the car, go really slow, or bring a second set of wheel /s rain tires

2, getting to/from the track; similar problem do you want to drive to the track on slicks?

3, everything else wears faster too, slicks put additional pressure on the brakes because slicks can stop faster meaning more heat into the brakes, slicks can corner harder meaning additional load on the bushings, hubs, etc.   

if i remember right you wanted a car you could get in drive to the track have fun and drive home.  slicks means you either have to swap wheels before you go, tow a tire trailer and swap wheels when you get there, or limit the effective usability of the car.  

The problem with takeoffs is the inconsistency, you're never really sure what you're getting.  Race tires lose performance from both heat cycles and from the intensity/duration of that heat.  So maybe you get a set that did a couple short cycles in wet/dry conditions and have tons of life left, but maybe you're getting the ones from the enduro that are totally beaten.  Are you buying complete sets, or mix-and-matching fronts/rears from different cars?  Would suck to end up with the awesome tires on the front and the used-up ones on the rear.

Another thing is that a used race tire isn't just slower because of loss of grip.  Yes, it loses some maximum grip (although in some cases not all that much), but it also becomes peakier, more knife-edged, and harder to drive.

The last time I used take offs I ran into the same issue of inconsistency. Extra bonus, assuming they're not the same tires you're using now, you might run into the issue of "wow the car sucks now, do I need to completely change the setup, or did I just get a bad set?"

I don't have much experience with full weekend style track events, how long do the ar1s or 200tws last? In my mind it's a lot more than two weekends, but I've never done more than about an hour of track time in a weekend.

I can't speak for all race slicks, but the ones I'm familiar with (spec Hoosiers for lightweight cars) are fastest on their first heat cycle, quick for 6-8 heat cycles depending on a few different factors, and lose a second or more between 8 and 12 heat cycles.  After that they pretty much fall off a cliff.  You can run them for 20-ish heat cycles before they cord, but they're edgy and unpredictable and generally unpleasant later in their life.  So the question is, are the takeoffs coming from someone who ran them for 4 heat cycles or 12?  You never really know, so the results can be pretty mixed.

I can't imagine that slicks for big heavy cars do any better, but I could be mistaken.

I guess I don't see the point?  There's no DE trophy, so why get used slicks?  I'd rather have a tire that's going to last longer and be consistent for me.  Granted finding tires in the sizes I need is difficult, but while ancient, the Nitto NT01's are great DE tires, especially if you're sharing the car with someone.  I'm curious to try the CRS V2's, as they seem to from what the GRM tire chart says, they're as durable as a NT01, yet stickier.

docwyte said:

I guess I don't see the point?  There's no DE trophy, so why get used slicks?  I'd rather have a tire that's going to last longer and be consistent for me.  Granted finding tires in the sizes I need is difficult, but while ancient, the Nitto NT01's are great DE tires, especially if you're sharing the car with someone.  I'm curious to try the CRS V2's, as they seem to from what the GRM tire chart says, they're as durable as a NT01, yet stickier.

Main benefit being the $600/set. If they are truly capable of being managed through 2 - 3 weekends of use on these heavier cars, they would be a great value compared to 1500 to 2000 dollar sets of slower tires that may make it to 3 or 4 weekends.

Not worried about the 3 seconds a lap, although it seems like everyone else in the advanced group at last weekend's PCA event was....... Had to have been 80% of cars running racing slicks in group 4. 

I've been using take offs for years and yes thier main benefit is cost. 

I get three good days out of them. After that they drop 2-3 seconds. I do two vintage race weekends and 4 track days on them. They will typically cord on the 5th track day usually on the last session of the day.

This equates to 36 sessions on track before they cord. I have a 1600lb car but I am not nice to the tires. 

I ran SM-7s on a NA Miata I used to own for track days and found them to be excellent.  The benefit to be being the same:  $300 a set for take offs vs $1200 a set for new.

John Berget is the guy I call for tires.

www.jbracingtires.net

Olemiss540 said:

docwyte said:

I guess I don't see the point?  There's no DE trophy, so why get used slicks?  I'd rather have a tire that's going to last longer and be consistent for me.  Granted finding tires in the sizes I need is difficult, but while ancient, the Nitto NT01's are great DE tires, especially if you're sharing the car with someone.  I'm curious to try the CRS V2's, as they seem to from what the GRM tire chart says, they're as durable as a NT01, yet stickier.

Main benefit being the $600/set. If they are truly capable of being managed through 2 - 3 weekends of use on these heavier cars, they would be a great value compared to 1500 to 2000 dollar sets of slower tires that may make it to 3 or 4 weekends.

Not worried about the 3 seconds a lap, although it seems like everyone else in the advanced group at last weekend's PCA event was....... Had to have been 80% of cars running racing slicks in group 4. 

Are you also factoring in time/money of mounting/balancing? 

Where are you getting takeoff sets that cheap? I more or less quit tracking my Z06 because the $2k/day tire bill was just way, way too much. Right now I'm on stock-sized Foregline wheels running 285/30-19 fronts and 335/25-20 rears in Sport Cup 2s. 

In reply to Olemiss540 :

I have a hard time believing you're going to get 2-3 weekends out of a set of take off slicks, especially with a co driver.  I think you're going to find false economy with the used tires, especially when you factor in the time and cost to mount/balance them.  

If you're blowing through a set of brand new NT01's in 3-4 weekends, then there's NO chance a set of take off slicks will last you 2-3 weekends.

docwyte said:

In reply to Olemiss540 :

I have a hard time believing you're going to get 2-3 weekends out of a set of take off slicks, especially with a co driver.  I think you're going to find false economy with the used tires, especially when you factor in the time and cost to mount/balance them.  

If you're blowing through a set of brand new NT01's in 3-4 weekends, then there's NO chance a set of take off slicks will last you 2-3 weekends.

To be fair, I havent seriously been considering NT01s for 3 reasons (although enjoyed them thoroughly in the past):

1. Availability: In these large of sizes, you can go 6-9 months before getting your hands on 335s.

2. Chassis: With a car this heavy (dang near 4k lbs), NT01's sidewall flex has been considered a serious downside on this chassis based on other's feedback

3. Andy hates them.

But thinking along the lines of Nankang CRSv2 or similar, looking at 2k per set lasting 3-4 weekends, if I can get through 2 weekends on a set of takeoffs (or maybe a weekend and a half), still only 1200 bucks plus 200 in mounting costs versus 2000 bucks plus 100 in mounting costs right? I will have some decent backup street tires (like supercar 3 (non-R's)) on my other set of rims to stretch the track tires all of the way to end of life.

Mostly worried about the HORROR stories I grew up with in this hobby. 15 years of snap oversteer death explosions has prevented me from even trying them once to see how they do.

brandonsmash said:

Where are you getting takeoff sets that cheap? I more or less quit tracking my Z06 because the $2k/day tire bill was just way, way too much. Right now I'm on stock-sized Foregline wheels running 285/30-19 fronts and 335/25-20 rears in Sport Cup 2s. 

19s will make it more difficult to source, but there are a couple three vendors everyone goes to, including jbracingtires mentioned above. 

Tom1200 said:

I've been using take offs for years and yes thier main benefit is cost. 

I get three good days out of them. After that they drop 2-3 seconds. I do two vintage race weekends and 4 track days on them. They will typically cord on the 5th track day usually on the last session of the day.

This equates to 36 sessions on track before they cord. I have a 1600lb car but I am not nice to the tires. 

The Porsche guys seem convinced they can get atleast 24 or so sessions out of their cars. Thanks.

Given that it's an amateur-level HPDE, and you're (probably) not hoping to be noticed by F1 scouts, I say take-offs are fine - as long as they've been examined for safety concerns. As far as driving to the event on slicks, I've done it for short distances but knew that running over most anything could puncture them. After that I carried them in the car and swapped them at the event.

So far no one has brought up the imminent danger to my life if I were to give this a try? Are they manageable when they get worn out, especially with modern traction management systems? No worry about snap death steer?

According to the GRM tire chart, the CRSV2's are supposed to be as durable as the NT01's.  They're what I'm going to try next on my car.  I still think your math is off, if a brand new set of CRS's are only going to last you 3-4 weekends, a take off set of slicks won't be lasting you 2 weekends...

Olemiss540 said:

So far no one has brought up the imminent danger to my life if I were to give this a try? Are they manageable when they get worn out, especially with modern traction management systems? No worry about snap death steer?

If you're driving your fast and expensive street car hard enough to expose the limits of race slicks at a track day, I would say your risk tolerance indicates that you have enough money on hand to run fresh tires as needed.

If you're budget constrained like most of us, I would say the potential consequences of running tired, edgy take-off slicks on a chassis that wasn't developed or tuned for tires with that amount of grip present you with a false economy.

I've driven takeoff slicks (Khum0 V700's) on the road to and from events before. It is presumed that you know better than to try that in the rain. Its also presumed that if you are participating in a motorsports event that you have enough car control to handle degraded slicks IN A NON-DYNAMIC drive cycle (meaning not pushing limits). 

I have ALSO driven decade old Azenis RT215's on the street. The real realization that they were utterly toast was when I could light them up at will in second gear attempting to merge. Dumb, but I have enough car control to not crash in hte manner which I found that out and the common sense to make the decision to park the car until I got tires that weren't petrified. Because I am dumb and have almost 20 years racing experience I took the car to an autocross on those tires. Yup, I had a VERY hard time keeping the car (a mustang) straight. Dynamically, felt fairly similar to a rain event, though it was dry. (that was dumb, DONT DO THAT)

Yes it has dangers, its within the realm that you should understand, not push on the road, and adapt to.  THERE ARE RISKS THAT YOU ARE ACCEPTING, but isnt that all motorsports?

It's $600, buy a set and report back!

docwyte said:

According to the GRM tire chart, the CRSV2's are supposed to be as durable as the NT01's.  They're what I'm going to try next on my car.  I still think your math is off, if a brand new set of CRS's are only going to last you 3-4 weekends, a take off set of slicks won't be lasting you 2 weekends...

I badly want to try the CRS's as well. May put a set of these on my street wheels and try the takeoffs on the track wheels. Only problem is availability now that shipments were turned away at port. Many out of stock (including the ones I need). And not cheap at all. I was going to put a set of Supercar 3's, which are supposed to be pretty dang capable and longer lasting, on my street wheels and run takeoffs on my track wheels. $2k a set for CRS's will hurt. Supercar 3's on the street wheels for $1387 a set plus $600 a set of takeoffs would be pretty nice comparatively. Maybe I will spring for CRS's on my street wheels and have them for backups for the takeoffs just to try them both.

For the takeoffs that you're looking at- do they come from cars that have a big/well established race series?  I think that's the other big variable with takeoff quality.  I used to buy the Spec Miata SM7's.  After every Majors or Runoffs event, there were truckloads of tires available that had 3-4 heat cycles on them.  For uncommon cars in uncommon series, I think you're going to have a lot more variability in quality.

Even with the SM7's, I bought a few sets that corded out in a single day.