Talk me out of a 944

So my situation is that I'm a 21yr old apprentice mechanic living at home. I'm currently paying a small monthly rent at home but my plan is to go straight to home ownership in 2 years. I'm currently putting away $1k/mo towards the down payment. I have a modified '95 Civic as a winterbeater/daily driver and a '91 Prelude as a project.

Two years ago one of my good friends used to own a '87 944 he picked up at an insurance auction. It was very lightly hit in the front, took very little to fix and he flipped it for a decent profit. Fast forward to now, the owner has neglected to change the timing belt, and it has snapped. The car is white, has "phone dial" wheels and around 250,000kms. The owner is asking $1500 for the car. I figure I could have the car running with freshened head, new oil seals, t-belt and tensioner for around $600 CAN.

Last night I was looking for 944 stuff on kijiji and came across this car: http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-Porsche-1984-Porsche-944-Coupe-2-door-W0QQAdIdZ154953994 I've emailed the owner but I'm afraid what would happen if i go see it.

My prelude I've owned for 4 years and have never driven it, but its finally supposedly going to be out of the body shop this Monday. Without a project car, I get bored and start playing with my daily driver. Now ever since hearing about this 944 I've been gotten the bug and I really want one. I know I shouldn't buy one, as I have no use for 2.5 projects and don't need the extra burden on my budget. But I WANT it. I'm tired of FWD econocars and would like to make the jump to a RWD platform designed with performance in mind. I could sell my Civic, but then the Porsche would have to take on the role of DD. This means being capable of taking on lots of snow and starting every morning in extreme cold without fail. I'm planing on selling the Prelude once it's road worthy, but only to make room for a minty all original lude that has not been subjected to lots of rust repair. The 3g lude was my first car, they have sentimental value to me.

Which 944 would be the better buy, the running older model or the newer one with update engine/interior/suspension that needs more work? Or talk some sense into me.

get the one that is running

Also because it is a cool color (diamond blue), ask me how I know :wink:

eric

flip a coin, seriously, grab life by the 'roots' it's alot more fun...

bad place to come to get talked out of a 944

Get both.

Have you ever done a timing belt change on a 944? It seriously the hardest, most time-consuming changeover ever. Parts are expensive and you really should do the water pump while you're down there. Also, since the belt snapped, there's a good chance all of the valves are bent. Oh, and clutches are $1000.

944's are a cheap way to go broke buying parts at 911 prices and still be looked down upon by Boxster owners. Pass.

Clutches are also an utter pain in the rear to change on 944s.

I've toyed with the idea of getting a 944 several times but I always found them a little underpowered (actually, not much low-down torque) unless you're talking S2.

Parts prices are cheaper than 911 prices (not hard, that) but they're still very much on the expensive side compared to something like a Honda.

If the $1500 one was more like $500, it would sound like a better idea. I think the owner may fail to realize that their neglecting to perform basic maintaince is going to cost them a bit of money if they just want to get rid of the car. If you are willing to sell your civic, maybe get an e30 as a daily driver instead? Or if you really want a transaxle car, get an alfa milano. IMO they are alot easier to live with than a 944. I have one and its my only car, and it has been fine for 2 years of everyday use. BTW, the reason the clutches are so expesnive (at least this is the case for the milano) is that its balanced as an assembley, and the flywheel is included in the clutch kit. The pressure plate will actually usually last the life of the car, and you just replace the clutch disc as needed.

Parts for 944s are P-car expensive and if the timing belt breaks you will have bent valves, at least. Tensioning the timing belt correctly requires special tool. Clutches are expensive but the swap is not too bad once you do it 6 or 7 times.

They are great cars and one of the best looking, still, out there (at least to us 944/968 faithful).

They are hard cars to "flip" and make money since "hidden" parts are so expensive. But other then being down on power they drive out with about anything on the road/track.

There is no such thing as a cheap exotic car, and any Porsche should be in that category. Yes, even the lowly 914 and 924 will gouge your wallet on certain items.

For the same money, you could own a BMW E30. Easier to work on, dirt cheap parts by comparison, likely more reliable and very fun to drive once you de-secretary the suspension. They turn very similar lap times to the worshipped brand from Stuttgart and it's designed-in awesomeness. A much better way to get you out of fwd hell (where I lived far too long myself).

Or, the answer is Miata.

P71 wrote: Have you ever done a timing belt change on a 944? It seriously the hardest, most time-consuming changeover *ever*. Parts are *expensive* and you really should do the water pump while you're down there. Also, since the belt snapped, there's a good chance all of the valves are bent. Oh, and clutches are $1000. 944's are a cheap way to go broke buying parts at 911 prices and still be looked down upon by Boxster owners. Pass.

Wrong. timing belts are fine if you follow a procedure. Clutch kits are about $500, you will only have to do the clutch once.

Be more concerned with power sterring leaks.

P71, where did you get your information?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/so-how-is-the-na-944-for-autocross/8043/page1/

AngryCorvair wrote:

P71 wrote: No such thing as a cheap one. Water pump/timing belt job is over $1,000 just in parts, same story on a clutch. Have money before you get one, because you won't have any by the time it's running...

i call BS. clutch parts are about $450 plus shipping for Sachs brand, as seen here and the timing belt kit will run you $205 plus shipping for Conti (made in Germany) as seen here and the water pump with gasket will set you back $125 plus shipping, shown here So, that's $780 in parts, not $2000. Bottom line is these cars run good and handle great, and nearly 30 years after their introduction they're still very sexy in the right color combination. Stay on top of routine maintenance -- Porsche, not Honda -- and you'll love the car. and if you get a pre-'87, I'll sell you a set of phone dials with 225/45-15 Hoosier A6's (half worn) for $300 plus shipping.

P71, do you have something against 944s?

dean1484 wrote: Get both.

Get both, but offer $1000 to the guy with the runner (sounds like he's in a hurry) and $750 for the non-runner. Build the best car from the two, and completely disassemble the other, saving as much as you can.

Keep your Civic as a daily driver.

Then sell the Prelude before it rusts to nothingness.

Swap in a 3 liter four cylinder out of a 968...same block...more torque...

Just bought a clutch kit for $460 shipped. Included spring centered clutch disc, pressure plate, throw out, etc., plus printed instructions. All Sachs stuff, not no-name. Shop around and you can find parts at reasonable prices. Timing belt isn't horrible if you pull the radiator out to make yourself some room. I had to do the same with my miata, so it's no worse of a job than any other timing belt change. Drop the engine out like I did and do your belts, clutch, oil seal thingies, etc, all at the same time.

944's aren't cheap to own, but they aren't as bad as they once were thanks to time and vendors stepping up to provide cheaper parts, plus the Grassroots folks are all over them coming up with solutions to make them better on the cheap (engine swaps, cheaper limited slip differentials from other Audi's, etc) They are still parts bin cars and use parts from other VAG products.

I've tried phoning the guy twice now, no answer.

I've been doing a lot of reading on rennlist and pelican parts forums. Timing belt kits are $185 on pelican parts (t-belt, balance shaft belt, and 4 idler/tensioner rollers) or $145 on ebay. Water pumps are $310 on pelican parts and under $150 on ebay? Not sure why the discrepancy there. Timing belt tool kit is $150 from http://www.arnnworx.com/ Sachs clutch kits are $450 on ebay, $615 on pelian. The $1k one on pelican also includes master and slave cyl and several seals.

I'd like an E30 but this is Canada, most vehicles older than 95 are rusty. This makes older car pricing artificially high if they're in decent shape. Miatas are priced high as well. Cheapest for sale on kijiji is a '91 RHD from japan for $5500, the next cheapest is a '92 for $6200.

The underhood shot of the blue one shows it has a power steering resevoir, my understanding was that it was optional on the early cars? Either way, I think if it would cost more than $150 to fix any leaks I'd convert to manual steering.

I just got work I'll be getting my prelude back from the bodyshop tomorrow, maybe seeing it in fresh paint after several months away will take my mind off 944s. Then I could save up more and find something with more service history.

EDIT: got through to the guy, car has 135,000kms on it, original rubber centered clutch. He bought the car a bit over 2 years ago, tbelt was replaced right before he bought it. Water pump is leaking, so that plus tbelt would have to be done. Car was keyed, he had an insurance claim for the work but couldn't manage to get the car in at the body shop he wanted so the claim expired. One of the p/s lines is leaking/seeping a bit, but not very bad. I'm going to go look at it in about an hour.

Your not helping my desire to get another example of Teutonic engineering. I have been eyeballing 911's but having trouble finding one in the condition and price range I have. Hmm, maybe a 944...

Nothing against them, except I've had to work on them. The prices you guys are throwing out there for parts are half of the cheapest crap we could find two years ago. John drug over 2 non-runners and they were the most expensive lawn ornaments ever. Maybe stuff has changed in the last two years, but it's still going to be way more expensive than any other 4cyl/RWD car and still be a PITA to work on. Germans must have tiny little hands with 4 fingers because I can't work on anything German!

There's over a dozen sub-$2000 944's within 50 miles of me, yet they never sell...

If you like the shape why not a 1st or 2nd gen RX7, very simple, similar power, great handling and huge support.

I love working on my (german) M3, e30's, and now an e32.... I don't think I have very small hands. ;). I'd recommend extending your search south of the border if you want an e30/rust free older RWD car. Importing anything older than 15 years is EASY, and working on a rust free car is truly priceless. I spent very little time under our Texas e30 so far, but it was certainly an eyeopener to this rust-belt Canuck.

Nathan

P71 wrote: There's over a dozen sub-$2000 944's within 50 miles of me, yet they never sell...

Maybe people are scared to buy them because others tell them [false] stories of $2000 for a t-belt & clutch job?

You should be able to find a remanufactured water pump for around $90-$130 as well. They are out there. try vertexauto.com and foreignintrigue.com as well. Pick up a copy of Excellence Magazine (sorry grm guys!) and peruse the ads for other parts sellers, there are tons.

Pelican is good, and I get a lot of stuff there, but they are not always the cheapest and you may have to shop around a bit to get the best deals on parts. Pelican forums are top-notch however, and Wayne (owner) is often on on the forums as well - offering advice, giving tips, soliciting ideas for new or improved products, etc.

m4ff3w wrote:

P71 wrote: There's over a dozen sub-$2000 944's within 50 miles of me, yet they never sell...

Maybe people are scared to buy them because others tell them [false] stories of $2000 for a t-belt & clutch job?

Yeah, because I can really influence the entirety of Portland...

Sounds like a V-8 swap candidate. Seriously.