Teenage driver, how new to be "safe"?

Start this around 1:10. It states that side airbags reduce fatalities in side impacts by almost 50%. First kid had the E36 (she's 22 now). the youngest will start in something with side airbags.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/hx1mBKeUeLo

I think the most scared I've been in my life was when i was hit in the side of my NA Miata by a Semi. He could not see me. I was laying on the horn for at least 5 seconds before he hit me. I was unable to move and he was trying to edge into traffic. Luckily he was doing about 2mph. I was between two 'normal' cars and my little Miata made him think there was a gap he could start forcing a merge into as I was below his line of sight. If he'd been looking a couple of seconds earlier he'd have seen me, but by the time he bothered to look I was hidden from him. My passenger jumped out the car as he was driving into me and I was in the process of unbuckling and heading out the other side when he suddenly noticed he was having issues moving forward. Now think of that accident at even 10mph. I have and I don't want too.

P.S. If I ever have another Miata it's getting a roll bar for the street.

Although honestly, a P71 wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Accidents happen. Otherwise they'd be called "on purposes". While considered safe in single car accidents, all else being relatively equal, mass matters. The Fiat may have a good safety rating but when the accident is head on into an F-250, I'd rather have been in the Ford.

All that said Saab, Volvo, Subaru, VW are all overbuilt. I think that the strongest chassis is going to be the best choice.

We bought a '98 Altima recently for the soon-to-be-driving teen and the more time I've spent in it the less I love it. In fact I just picked up a 2000 Passat for near pocket change that will be the teenager car instead and will sell the Altima on down the road.

first car?

stripped down low option mid 60's Impala 4 door with a straight 6 that runs on 4 or 5 cylinders and a 3 on the tree.. make the kid take the test in it, too..

See, I figured this would be a good topic. I was interested in the opinion of car people because the average driver opinion was so far off my own. I mean, cars were cool and fun when I was a kid. Now, parents seem to think it's like handing a toddler a loaded gun. I had one guy tell me I might as well kill my son now if I bought him a truck because he would definitely die in it.

I want him to have a car that I only need liability on. I'm still making payments on the Fiat and the insurance will be expensive. Plus, I kinda want him to have a bit of a beater to be forced learn to wrench and work on. I agree with a two seater (or barely a 4 seater like a MINI) because less chance of peer pressure.

He's already nervous as hell driving on the road. He realized quickly that the average driver is just plain stupid and points it out on a regular basis. He's told me he prefers the track because he, generally, knows what everyone else is going to do. It's kinda funny that he acts like a crotchety old man at 15, sometimes.....

I had to pull him from karting this year because the costs had tapped me out. So, I want him to be able to autocross to feed that itch. If it was MY choice, I'd find him an '89 Civic Si to autocross in the STS class. He's already got skills (that need honing in a car), so I'd rather him have a competitive car from the start. But, he loathes Honda's because of the typical teenage Honda driver stereotype. A Miata could still do that. A MINI might, but are slowly getting out classed. (At least for one's in our price range)

I always thought that I grew up driving small cars and am still here, but am realizing that ALL cars have gotten much bigger, so a '67 Triumph in 1985 WAS probably safer than one in 2016.

-Rob

maschinenbau wrote: - Scary as hell to drive as a new driver = more aware of your abilities and anticipation/fear of other drivers.

I disagree.

I drove a '74 valiant as a first car in 1999. Its terrible by modern standards. But when you are 15 or 16 and its your only car, you don't really have a reference point of how terrible it is. You don't know that every other car on the road can out accelerate you, definitely out-stop you, out handle you, etc.

So what I'm getting at is... the car didn't scare me, but it sure as hell should have.

There is a slope of "safe enough" and only you can decide where you live on that slope. Nearly every car is safer as it gets newer, but you can't just buy a new car every two years. Then there's the near fact that they are going to trash this car, and if you're paying for it that sucks.

I paid for my own car, and it was terribly unsafe, and I did get into a few minor accidents, but I was always fine. I was gifted an old truck when I went to college, maybe a street value of $500, and drove it tens of thousands of miles as a out-of-state student, was in one sort of major accident and was unhurt. These both had shoulder belts and that's it. Then again, my family rides around in a newer minivan with side airbags, ABS, stability control etc etc.

You're going to have to make this call, there is no "answer".

I'd suggest something new enough to have airbags, that has 2 seats (fewer distracting passengers)and a manual transmission (harder to be on your phone while driving). Smaller vehicles may be easier to park, and will probably use less fuel.

I'd let the first car be more or less a cheap throwaway car because teenagers will be teenagers. I think it's important to drive crappy cars, and work crappy jobs at that age in order to motivate further success. In the mean time, let him autocross your stuff to continue to gain knowledge and understanding behind the wheel.

Get him a nicer vehicle if you want after he's proven he can take good care of his vehicle. Letting him know that a nicer vehicle might be waiting as a graduation gift in a couple of years could help to motivate better performance in school, etc.

rob_lewis wrote: See, I figured this would be a good topic. I was interested in the opinion of car people because the average driver opinion was so far off my own. I mean, cars were cool and fun when I was a kid. Now, parents seem to think it's like handing a toddler a loaded gun. I had one guy tell me I might as well kill my son now if I bought him a truck because he would definitely die in it. I want him to have a car that I only need liability on. I'm still making payments on the Fiat and the insurance will be expensive. Plus, I kinda want him to have a bit of a beater to be forced learn to wrench and work on. I agree with a two seater (or barely a 4 seater like a MINI) because less chance of peer pressure. He's already nervous as hell driving on the road. He realized quickly that the average driver is just plain stupid and points it out on a regular basis. He's told me he prefers the track because he, generally, knows what everyone else is going to do. It's kinda funny that he acts like a crotchety old man at 15, sometimes..... I had to pull him from karting this year because the costs had tapped me out. So, I want him to be able to autocross to feed that itch. If it was MY choice, I'd find him an '89 Civic Si to autocross in the STS class. He's already got skills (that need honing in a car), so I'd rather him have a competitive car from the start. But, he loathes Honda's because of the typical teenage Honda driver stereotype. A Miata could still do that. A MINI might, but are slowly getting out classed. (At least for one's in our price range) I always thought that I grew up driving small cars and am still here, but am realizing that ALL cars have gotten much bigger, so a '67 Triumph in 1985 WAS probably safer than one in 2016. -Rob

I think that's going to be your sticking point. Autocross wants a very lightweight car, safety wants more steel so even a smaller safe car is going to be heavier (see the ones I mentioned). Competitive AND affordable AND safe, the requirements are starting to get tough to work around. A friend of mine won H-street at nationals this year in a 2006 (?) Honda Civic Si, that might be a decent choice.

3.1 lumina 90-94. Slow as balls, built like a tank.

My first summer of driving was my 54 belair. Maybe 125hp, 0-60 and quarter mile times equal, over 22 seconds. Big metal dash, lap belt, 42(at time) year old suspension and drum brakes. I'm still here, and never had a close call. Driving something rickety and old taught way more respect for the art of driving than something with a million airbags would. I would have felt more invincible than I already did.

Nothing to contribute, I'm just envious that your son started karting at 6.

Where I live, there is no reason for a 16 year old to drive far from home or on very high speed of roads. So I would be ok with something smaller/older than if I lived where they would need to be going further from home and/or on faster roads. And if on occasion they did have reason to do so, they could always borrow a 'safer' car. Either way, by the time they're 18 it's their choice anyways. So might as well make it something they'll enjoy, albeit somewhat underpowered even for a skilled young driver. I would still try to steer towards cars that were better rated for safety than not for the years produced, and ideally keep it having been designed within the last 15 years or so, but still a bit of a 'beater' too. That being said, a higher end 15 year old car may still be safer than a 10 year old lower end car. So maybe I'd be willing to stretch the age of the car a little more there on something like an E46. If it's also going to be an autox car, I would also look for interesting options based on classing as well.

If going older than an NC Miata, I personally would stick to the 2001-2005 for the high back seats, to then combine with a Hard Dog Ace or Deuce roll bar for addtional lifted-truck side/rear impact and roll over protection.

ProDarwin wrote:

maschinenbau wrote: - Scary as hell to drive as a new driver = more aware of your abilities and anticipation/fear of other drivers.

I disagree. I drove a '74 valiant as a first car in 1999. Its terrible by modern standards. But when you are 15 or 16 and its your only car, you don't really have a reference point of how terrible it is. You don't know that every other car on the road can out accelerate you, definitely out-stop you, out handle you, etc. So what I'm getting at is... the car didn't scare me, but it sure as hell should have.

I totally see what you're getting at. I probably should have mentioned I did most of my learning on my parents' modern cars, so jumping into the El Camino was like learning all over again. It really broke down the (over)confidence I had from learning in an easier car.

I'm going to agree with a lot of what Adrian has said above (even right down to the E36 I was also gonna recommend .)

In my decade of driving I've now had two accidents - neither of which were my fault, nor were they realistically avoidable. In the first, I was rear ended by a Tacoma at about 50mph in my E36 - never even saw him coming, aside from a momentary flash of red in the rear view. In the second, a Transit Connect pulled out less than 100 ft in front of my Camaro, giving me no time to avoid him.

E36 M3 happens and you can't bank on having even a slight opportunity to avoid it, sometimes you really are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So I'd look at something that at least stands a fighting chance against a 3 ton SUV. Doesn't need to be the latest and greatest, with all the electronic nannies and eleventy billion air bags, but there is definitely a happy middle ground between that and a '72 Midget. I think an E36 or an E46 would be great, substantial and well built enough to survive a hard hit, yet fun and nimble enough to entertain him.

My E36 held up great in that crash, BTW. Pretty much destroyed everything aft of the rear seat, but I walked away without a scratch.

Can you get him into donks or stance or whatever silliness is currently popular that has the car so low you have to go 2mph over manhole covers? Slow wrecks have to be better than fast ones (unless you are the poor miata getting smushed by a Semi at 2mph)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas. Relatively inexpensive, rather safe, incredibly comfortable, and it's damn near impossible to pull shenanigans in one, even if you want to. A car for cruising to the golf course rather than tearing up the autocross course.

I think safety is up to the driver not the car. Yes some cars are safer than others but if you are going to float that argument then abstinence is really your answer and you need to have someone drive him everywhere he needs to go. Let him learn how to be responsible in something that doesn't cost a lot, maybe isn't all that reliable (then he can learn to fix stuff too and become more self reliant) and when you think he gets it, help him get something better. I've done this with two boys and one girl and its worked very well so far.

All I can really share is my thought process as I prepare to do the same shopping. We initially picked up a 2000 Insight. It's a manual, modern, and my daughter likes it. I'll have about $3500 into it when it's in shape to run her around. The problem is that you can find a 2012 Fiesta sedan in a manual for $5k or less. The Fiesta is two generations of safety newer. Once my wife heard that, the discussion was over. Of all the time and energy and money we spend to raise our kids, the extra $1500 to gain that safety is worth it. For reference, I live just outside Houston. Deucekid#1 will drive this to school. That drive is about half back road, half six lane 75mph commuter freeway. If I lived in a small town or did primarily neighborhood speed driving, my thought process might be different.

G_Body_Man wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas. Relatively inexpensive, rather safe, incredibly comfortable, and it's damn near impossible to pull shenanigans in one, even if you want to. A car for cruising to the golf course rather than tearing up the autocross course.

If shenanigans means burnouts and drifts, then yeah, it'll do a good job of avoiding them. However, you can throw one of those down a windy backroad at double the speed limit and hardly notice They handle deceptively well for their size, etc.

Get him a Mazda, but not the Miata. The Mazda 3 Sport is available with manual 6 speed, has inherently decent handling and safety and would give him the room to carry lots of stuff around.

Everyone here is missing the point that we're supposed to be looking for a car for a national-level kart driver. This is someone who's driven at race pace for hours almost every weekend for a decade in something with a PAX index over 1. We're not looking for something that's friendly for a driver with inadequate car-control skills; we're trying to find something that will keep him from zoning out or piling a bunch of friends in to do an exhibition run.

Seriously, a C5 Corvette is probably the right answer here. Insurance will be less than most cars chosen for/by teenagers.

rslifkin wrote:

G_Body_Man wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas. Relatively inexpensive, rather safe, incredibly comfortable, and it's damn near impossible to pull shenanigans in one, even if you want to. A car for cruising to the golf course rather than tearing up the autocross course.

If shenanigans means burnouts and drifts, then yeah, it'll do a good job of avoiding them. However, you can throw one of those down a windy backroad at double the speed limit and hardly notice They handle deceptively well for their size, etc.

my buddy bought a 93 jaguar xj6 when we were ~17. although its a little behind the xj8 it was still fast enough and 'luxurious' enough to make 120 mph feel like 70. it also did many burnouts and drifts

A slow car will simply be driven flat-out everywhere by this karter. Not much is built for the 100% duty cycle, and you'll get tired of replacing bushings, wheel bearings, driveshafts, differentials, springs, dampers etc.

It's amazing how we talk about "safety", then jump right to fatality statistics.

The ability to survive a crash is significantly different than the ability to avoid a crash, and the vast majority of crashes are not fatal.

We can talk about side impact airbags, truck bumper heights, etc, but the question never seems to be answered, "How often does it happen?".

In my family, we've never had an accident claim. 6 drivers, 108 combined years of driving. Could it happen? Of course. But I don't think my car buying decisions have an enormous impact on how "safe" my family is.

I'd be comfortable with almost any car after 1990. Crumple zones, decent structural engineering, submarine engine, door impact bars, well designed 3-point belts, basic airbags, many had ABS. That's a pretty good package, and can be had really cheap.

The kid can already drive. Give him the proper tool so he can successfully avoid a crash, and leave the rest. Ability to survive being Tee-boned by a tractor trailer? Well, that's a crap shoot.

And now I'm thinking Days of Thunder with the rental cars.