The people who shake their heads at you are idiots and should mind their own berkeleying business.
My first car was a Plymouth Sundance. It had a single airbag. I'm still alive, and your son has a hell of a lot more automobile experience than I did at 16.
Get him a Mini Cooper or Miata.
rslifkin wrote:G_Body_Man wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas. Relatively inexpensive, rather safe, incredibly comfortable, and it's damn near impossible to pull shenanigans in one, even if you want to. A car for cruising to the golf course rather than tearing up the autocross course.If shenanigans means burnouts and drifts, then yeah, it'll do a good job of avoiding them. However, you can throw one of those down a windy backroad at double the speed limit and hardly noticeThey handle deceptively well for their size, etc.
The chassis is pretty great, however my seat time made me feel like it has the power and chassis to be fast, yet it doesn't make you want to go fast in it. Maybe that's the trick, a car that has the power and handling and safety and brakes to get you out of trouble when you need to, but doesn't egg you on or feel overly sporty. Something you can enjoy for comfort and luxury, rather than power and handling.
A lot of you are missing a big part of modern cars, the stability control systems. They're really good. Much better than a car with just ABS from 10 years ago. Try and autocross a newish car with all the nannies on. Damn near impossible to do something dumb. For this particular kid it's probably not an issue, but those nannies make cars safer for 99% of drivers. They keep cars from tipping over, and tipping over is quite dangerous.
I vote BMW E36 or E46. Looks cool, good gearbox, good steering feel, solid structure, plentiful parts and solid online DIY, side airbags on some. Balance of fast enough and good enough MPG. I would also be fine with a Miata.
In reply to mazdeuce:
I'm not a huge fan of stability control in the snow. Hit a patch of ice in our 2013 Sonata on X-ice Xi3s, even for a moment, and the car can go a bit haywire. With the system off, I haven't really had any issues with the car not doing what's right for the situation (having ABS suddenly activate on the left front wheel when you're going downhill is very sketchy when you're just using engine braking along with a little bit of pedal pressure to slow the roll). Granted, I have driven cars in the snow that have very good stability control systems (W221s and G37s have really good systems), so it's more of a YMMV thing.
mazdeuce wrote: A lot of you are missing a big part of modern cars, the stability control systems. They're really good. Much better than a car with just ABS from 10 years ago. Try and autocross a newish car with all the nannies on. Damn near impossible to do something dumb. For this particular kid it's probably not an issue, but those nannies make cars safer for 99% of drivers. They keep cars from tipping over, and tipping over is quite dangerous.
Interesting post. I've tried to autocross a car (several) with just ABS from the mid 90s and do dumb stuff. This was actually the premise of a driving school a friend was trying to develop. You can't easily make a mid 90s car do dumb stuff at typical autocross speeds (<55mph... talking HS-speed cars here).
I wonder if the primary driver of stability control systems is simply that modern cars are taller and more likely to tip over.
In reply to ProDarwin:
I'm not so sure about that last bit, seeing as how Jaguar's new F-Pace has incredible levels of grip with the stability control off with no real tipsiness (and that's an SUV!).
In reply to ProDarwin:
That's just because they mostly had ludicrous amounts of understeer in stock form.
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In reply to G_Body_Man:
The amount of body roll has little to do with at what lateral acceleration the vehicle will become a bicycle. Center of gravity height and amount of grip on the other hand...
chaparral wrote: A slow car will simply be driven flat-out everywhere by this karter. Not much is built for the 100% duty cycle, and you'll get tired of replacing bushings, wheel bearings, driveshafts, differentials, springs, dampers etc.
Easy, you make him fix it so he learns some mechanical sympathy in the process.
Note: this is the point of view of the son that had this done to him.
I'd think a Mazda 2 would fit the bill nicely, then he can save up for the eventual project car.
These posts are why I friggen love this board. I think I've considered something similar to every post here as we've talked about it (ok, maybe not the donk's....). Of course I want him to be safe, but he's a car guy at heart and driving is in his DNA. I'm not much help because I look at it through my 50 year old eyes and still see British cars of the 60's.
Although I don't have the cash to get him there, he's still planning on making a living with racing someday (as a driver/engineer/teacher), and I'd like to start him with something to get him to that goal. We have new cars for longer trips if he needs to borrow it, but I can also see him trailering tires and a tent behind a Miata to hit the Solo Nats next year. And it needs to fit a budget around $3-4k.
In a perfect world, he'd have a nice car for school and a race car for the weekends like many of his former karting competitors do.......
-Rob
My kids both drive 3 door hatchbacks. #1 daughter has a 2005 Hyundai Accent and #2 daughter has a 2004 Toyota Echo (I don't know if you got these in the States). Both are stick shift and damn near bullet proof. Both have airbags and nothing else. I make sure the brakes, suspension and tires are good the rest is up to them. Both are entertaining but uncompetitive in autocross. Not enough power to get themselves in too much trouble but they're agile enough to take evasive action when needed.
In my humble opinion you want your kid in the car that he or she is least likely to do stupid stuff in. That would be something that the kid values and has sweat equity in. In the OP's case that seems like it would be an autocross car that's serviceable as a daily driver. If he breaks it on the street then he'll miss the next autocross event. I'd also have a clean license requirement as part of the deal.
I don't autocross so I don't know what the options are but I'd be looking at the various classes and what's competitive in them and try and match that up with the budget. Actually, I wouldn't be looking, I'd have the kid do it.
Having recently completed the same process, I'm pretty happy where we ended up. I ended up purchasing a 2002 Protege5, red, 5 speed. The only thing I'm not crazy about with it is the maximum idiot capacity is too high. (We looked for 6 months for a clean Del Sol before giving up on that idea and settling on the Protege). The flip side is that it has decent cargo capacity, a roof rack for outdoor activities and is probably big enough to "carry his worldly possessions" in as a young adult. It's also a decent sized car and, being red, pretty visible. We picked it up pretty cheap ($2200) and have done several projects together to get it into decent shape. Right now, it's abysmal at autocross due to being severely under-tired, but it has decent enough handling that I can honestly say it's almost as much fun to drive as my Miata. It also has a face-melting heater, cold AC and has recently proven itself pretty capable in the snow.
My point is, there are options between the land-barge approach and putting him in a tin can. Even options with some potential lessons to teach an aspiring professional driver. I wouldn't totally sell out for a "great handling" car, either. I plan to let (and, in fact, encourage) my son to autocross his car. Is it going to be a class winner? Nope. Is it going to understeer like a three legged hippo? Likely yes, at least until we do some work on the suspension and upgrade to decent rubber. Coming from carts, it may not be all bad if your son learns to make the most of a car with less than perfect handling. The "aliens" I know mostly started out learning how to make slow cars WAAAAY faster than they had any right to be.
Based on the budget range you seem to be describing, I'd look at something like a Mazda 3, Jetta, or BMW 3 series (and one that's cheap enough that you don't need full coverage insurance).
EDIT: Current status: 
rob_lewis wrote: In a perfect world, he'd have a nice car for school and a race car for the weekends...
In my ideal world...Kiddo gets an acceptable car for school, and I get a fun car that they could rent from me (with money from their job) at a reasonable rate when they want to autox it. Short of that maybe just find a lower grade 'nationally competitive' platform that also meets somewhat higher 'safety' margins than an old Miata for their acceptable school car...What does a stock 2007 Civic Si go for these days?
G_Body_Man wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: I'm not so sure about that last bit, seeing as how Jaguar's new F-Pace has incredible levels of grip with the stability control off with no real tipsiness (and that's an SUV!).
Yes, but at 65" high and 65" track width, its still better off from a rollover standpoint compared to many modern econoboxes and most modern SUVs.
Most modern cars don't have dimensions like that. Look at how many recent offerings have been banned by SCCA, or seen on 2 wheels on street tires, or are just much taller than their track width.
Have you looked at the RSX-S? They can be found in your price range and one won STF at nationals this year. They have some engineering challenges with the rear suspension, but it's an interesting problem. They're a small Honda hatchback with a factory LSD, a good motor and Honda reliability. Not the best use of space inside but better than a Miata. For even better space the breadvan Si would be great. Shares the mechanicals, much more space and a bit more weight. Both of them are fairly modern from a driving and safety standpoint. If you go this direction I can put you in touch with the guy who won nationals in it. He revalves Bilsteins in his garage for his autocross cars and might be a good guy to learn from.
How about a cool cruiser for DD duty and a cheap Auto-X miata to replace the Kart. Some cars beg to be driven around enjoying being comfy and looking good and some beg to be tossed around. DD'ing the one that he knows how to slide around is begging for showing off and getting tickets.
http://skipbarber.com/teen-safety-survival/
This would have been a perfect application for the 2-year old Mirage I just sold for $5500.
The only hard line in the sand I would draw is newer than 1973, so it's got shoulder belts. That said, in a first car you are looking for condition first and vehicle second. By that I mean a 60k mile 1998 Saturn would be the clear winner over a 2010 anything with 250k miles.
You have the advantage of time to look for the car you know will be reliable. I think a new Corolla will be dependable, but I know beyond any doubt that a manual transmission 2000 Corolla with under 100k miles is barely broken in.
My wife drove a '78 Nova in high school and I bought her another one with 38k miles on it as a gift a few years ago. I wouldn't hesitate to put a kid behind the wheel because it is a great car. I know everything that can and is likely to go wrong with the car and I know that even as a daily driver it's going to be dead nuts reliable.
I may have missed this suggestion, and if so I apologize.
What about a Bobzilla Forte? Seems to be reliable even with mods.
Start out unmodified and work his way up through different classes as he can afford modifications.
New enough go to have safety features, not flashy enough to stand out, and some potential for competitive auto crossing.
Wear condom at at all times?
ProDarwin wrote:G_Body_Man wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: I'm not so sure about that last bit, seeing as how Jaguar's new F-Pace has incredible levels of grip with the stability control off with no real tipsiness (and that's an SUV!).Yes, but at 65" high and 65" track width, its still better off from a rollover standpoint compared to many modern econoboxes and *most* modern SUVs. Most modern cars don't have dimensions like that. Look at how many recent offerings have been banned by SCCA, or seen on 2 wheels on *street tires*, or are just much taller than their track width.
And on that note, even for the same dimensions, a lot of modern cars appear to have a higher CoG than older ones. Seats tend to be mounted up higher, more structure in the roof and pillars for rollover protection, etc.
The NB Miata's crash test results were excellent when they came out.
I think there's a balance between safety features and the driver. Sounds like you've covered the driver's side pretty well. I'd say something like an E36/E46 would be a good fit for what you're looking for. I went from Fox Body Mustangs to an E36 to a New Edge Mustang, mostly based on safety. Another factor is the use of the vehicle, back roads vs. a lot of highway driving can also change your choice.
I want my children to have some stake in the vehicle from a time and cost perspective. My thought is to buy something with their input, and then use it to teach them basic maintenance and repairs.
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