Teenage driver, how new to be "safe"?

I, too, vote e46. Probably the 325 which is plenty fun, cheap enough to buy in, and with a reasonable belt line/cowl height. I'm a pretty tall dude, and I swear I can't see out of anything built after, like 2012. The m54 is still DIYable and its issues have been pretty well sorted out with tons of tutorials on the interwebs for changing coil packs and the like. He can autocross it and it's small enough that he can't bring a ton of friends with him. I think they had pretty good safety ratings back in the day.

Having seen what happens in high school parking lots, I vote for something cheap and disposable as the drive-to-school car. Then pick up a Miata or (insert fun car here) for autocross use. My kid is working on his grandfather to sell his RSX-S to him at a 'family friendly price'.

My son pointed out to me what he's seen happen at school: The kids whose mom and dad buy their snowflake a new car 'to be safe' are crashing and totalling them at a much higher rate, including at least one totalled on school property this year (Dingbat on phone while parking).

Just out of curiosity, you already have an autocross car don't you? Why not have the boy in something fun/nimble/safe/etc as a DD and let him co-drive with you? I'm looking forward to schooling my son in the Miata in a couple of years! And if he ever gets god enough to beat me in my own car we'll both know he accomplished something.

XLR99 wrote: Having seen what happens in high school parking lots.

X2.

Since selling my old conversion van almost two years ago, I've really missed everything about that kind of vehicle. Older vans can be had for pretty cheap and likely cheap to insure for a newer driver? The "creepy Van" repelling aura and elevated sight make a good combo for a young driver in chaotic parking lots and elsewhere. Plus it allows me the utility such a vehicle provides when I need it.

The previous owner of another old conversion van I had years ago auto crossed it. He said he always won his class with it

Although my first car as a teenager was a 1966 Dodge Dart, when my children are ready to drive, I will be quite firm about requiring their car to be new enough to have factory installed shoulder seat belts. Those are probably the biggest single improvement in safety in the 20th century.

KyAllroad wrote: Just out of curiosity, you already have an autocross car don't you? Why not have the boy in something fun/nimble/safe/etc as a DD and let him co-drive with you? I'm looking forward to schooling my son in the Miata in a couple of years! And if he ever gets god enough to beat me in my own car we'll both know he accomplished something.

This. My son is in his second week of Driver's Ed. We told him a couple of years ago that he will be inheriting our 2005 Honda Accord, 4 cylinder, automatic. It's been extrememly reliable in our nearly 10 years of ownership, has a crap ton of airbags, consumables and parts are cheap, there are a ton out there if body damage occurs, and a few companies carry aftermarket parts if he goes that route. Should also be on the cheap end of the insurance scale. This is the part I'd be worried about with a Mini or Miata.

Since I daily the Accord now, I will replace it with a fun, autox-capable car that he can co-drive.

drainoil wrote:

XLR99 wrote: Having seen what happens in high school parking lots.

X2. Since selling my old conversion van almost two years ago, I've really missed everything about that kind of vehicle. Older vans can be had for pretty cheap and likely cheap to insure for a newer driver? The "creepy Van" repelling aura and elevated sight make a good combo for a young driver in chaotic parking lots and elsewhere. Plus it allows me the utility such a vehicle provides when I need it. The previous owner of another old conversion van I had years ago auto crossed it. He said he always won his class with it

As a 17 year old male, I can tell you that anything you can fit a mattress in is a terrible idea.

G_Body_Man wrote: As a 17 year old male, I can tell you that anything you can fit a mattress in is a terrible idea.

Can confirm. My high school ride was a Plymouth Grand Voyager. Not only could it fit a mattress, it also fit 13 friends on spring break excursions, and saw numerous 180 degree spins in the snow. How something so large could be so invisible to law enforcement is beyond me, but it was.

In reply to STM317:

My buddy has an AWD Sienna, the one without any stability or traction control. I bet AWD donuts while rolling 7 deep would be nuts.

I don't recall seeing a price range. It seems that the objection to the Miata or the Mini Cooper is there relatively small size. What about something like a 2005 to 2009 V6 Mustang with a standard. Modern safety equipment but not a behemoth SUV. They can be fun and at usual asking prices I've seen of between $5,500 and $8,000 they could be relatively disposable

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I think the most scared I've been in my life was when i was hit in the side of my NA Miata by a Semi. He could not see me. I was laying on the horn for at least 5 seconds before he hit me. I was unable to move and he was trying to edge into traffic. Luckily he was doing about 2mph. I was between two 'normal' cars and my little Miata made him think there was a gap he could start forcing a merge into as I was below his line of sight. If he'd been looking a couple of seconds earlier he'd have seen me, but by the time he bothered to look I was hidden from him. My passenger jumped out the car as he was driving into me and I was in the process of unbuckling and heading out the other side when he suddenly noticed he was having issues moving forward. Now think of that accident at even 10mph. I have and I don't want too. P.S. If I ever have another Miata it's getting a roll bar for the street.

Maybe have something in the seat to throw at the windshield to stop the guy. I'm not sure what would help with that situation--how can you be safer? I guess just watch for driveways? But they're all over, you can't avoid all of them...

I'm in the camp of sharing your autocross car with him. My dad and I did that for many years and had a blast competing against each other. It also meant working on it together. When I started doing DE, it was an excuse for him to upgrade so I could learn on his slow NA 944. Ironically, when we go to the track now we often share my miata. Sharing a car also means you can compare notes.

As for first car, Volvo or Saab. I'd probably also consider a new beetle.

In reply to rob_lewis:

So in summation your young new driver's traffic awareness is more key than the car as long as it is from 2004 or newer (I think that is when a lot of NCAP safety improvements hit most cars). Your son can probably handle any car. If he is in a bad enough accident to kill him in a Miata or Mini it is probably a big enough accident to kill him in anything up to an Suburban anyhow. If he cares about the car then more than likely he will maintain his SA of traffic around him.

Well I just went through this with my daughter. She is opposite of your son in that she had ZERO interest in cars; and still is a bit ambivalent except for the freedom it gives her. So now she would probably "just die" if we had to borrow the car when one of ours is in the shop for repairs or something. She would be commuting to school over about 3 miles then to her part time job about the same distance away but requiring a one exit over run on a highway. We briefly talked about safety and both my wife and I felt that it was most important to keep focusing our daughter on the total picture of the most likely accident. Cost of lifestyle/cost of funds/cost of time are far more likely than just death. A middle range single car accident where she hits a pole will cost us a car, her freedom with that car, probably her job and the worst thing ever.......she would have to ride her bicycle to school!!!!!! dun dun duuuuunnnnnn. But then on the serious side. We talked about losing your health over the long run. She was in the marching band and loves playing the flute so, we talked about what happens when your hand gets crushed? Your back gets damaged? etc. We explained that we are investing in her driving through increased insurance payments and that it will impact how much we have for her University costs. We talked to her about situational awareness and why it mattered to watch the cars around you. I would talk to her about how I was watching this car because it is weaving within it's lane or that truck because it seems to be hitting the brakes for no reasons and explain why I was taking the following action to reduce risk from them. No amount of autocross or karting will prepare you for spotting signals from the guy or gal two lanes over to your right that is about to try and turn left across your path because they are about to miss their turn. I didn't shy away from emphasizing when I was wrong too. Your son's karting experience will at least reduce some of the learning curve on using the steering wheel and pedals. (I was surprised to find my daughter and my neice both thought you used the steering wheel the same as with the Wii Steering wheel controller for playing mario kart. As in you only need a quarter turn of the wheel for any turn!) While letting her know also that even if she drives perfectly someone else could make a mistake and crash into her and that we won't be upset just want her to always use her seatbelt and no phone. (I do pull over to use my phone) The goal was to teach her that the risk is there but it shouldn't cause her to lock up with too much stress and fear, to keep trying and know that she will always be learning. Despite all of that it took her about two years to stop tailgating people and mindlessly following the car in front of her(almost drove us into oncoming traffic doing that once Car ahead made an illegal pass crossing the double yellow and my daughter just started to follow!). Some dangerous behavior is expected now and then as they are learning.

Options were:

• New small car, corolla, yaris, Mazda 2, etc.
• New to us used car from this century. Technology should be safe enough.
• Hand down the 05 Corolla S automatic no ABS but with airbags

We were big on the used car but we ended up doing the hand me down as she had some childhood memories of it that led her to care about it more than the other options. Moreso it was due to my wife making the call that she wanted to get a new car for herself. Still the best I can do is keep her focused on being safe until she doesn't need a car as she seems to talk about living in a city with mass transit to get to work and using an driverless Uber to get anywhere else. So to continuously improve she is due to go to an autocross with me next summer.

Final note: As a kart racer you would have to stress a lot that the stability control of whatever car you do get him may thwart his plans and he will need to learn how to drive with them engaged. I have experienced moments where I am expecting the car to move a certain way and start to setup my steering and pedal work accordingly only to have the VSC do its own thing causing me to flounder around and not follow the line I wanted. One time it almost caused me to hit a spinning car I was hard braking and turning to avoid; the VSC "fixed" the slide I was expecting and so I didn't slide left as much as I wanted. So I had this awkward two step effort to go left.