Perry, a friend of mine saw something today about a Porsche 928 on Barn finds today.
He's got one and he's thinking of Vintage racing it.
I don't know anything about them. Are they fast? How expensive will it be to get it Race ready?
He's a so-so mechanic. He can read instructions and follow them but has almost no mechanical feeling or sense.
Put a carb'd 350 in it and send it. There's a reason you hardly see one on the street anymore.
IIRC auto trans parts are unobtainium. A big number were autos.
GeddesB said:IIRC auto trans parts are unobtainium. A big number were autos.
No it's a manual.
This is a race car not for the street
racerfink said:Put a carb'd 350 in it and send it. There's a reason you hardly see one on the street anymore.
Won't be eligible for Vintage racing.
If this were a Jag I'd know.
But I don't know Porsche. Except they are supposed to be expensive. Are they fast? I know certain 911's are but I've never seen a 928 racing. Are they capable? Is it a fools errand?
I know him. He doesn't have deep pockets. He wants to go racing, vintage racing. It's what he has.
In reply to racerfink :
Good info. Porsche is a lot lighter than the Jaguar XJS. Close to 900 pounds, But heavier than the Camaro by 40 pounds Plus more compact. Than either.
Power the Camaro Z28 makes 160 stock
The Porsche S makes 234 hp stock
Jaguar makes 262. Hp stock.
They were wrong. Jaguar's top speed is 150 mph, Porsche 145, Camaro Z28 135 . Yet the Camaro Z28 was 1.7 sec faster around the track.
A Corvette or a Camaro would be the most expensive to race prep. Since both need completely new racing grade engine parts.
Prepared to the full capability the Chevy products would cost close to $ $30,000 to make a reliable 650 SVRA legal horsepower.
Porsche is the unknown. For engine to make 650 reliable horsepower to SVRA. Standards.
Jaguar, $8,000 worth of Engine parts would make the same 650 horsepower just as reliable.
My understanding of them is keeping one running on the street requires burning large piles of money. I can only guess racing one would burn enormous piles of money.
About the only thing I can think of that might take more money and "mechanical sense" to keep running than a vintage air cooled porsche is a vintage water cooled porsche.
And I say that as an admitted porsche fan.
The air cooled cars take cubic dollars to build but are fairly robust once running. The water cooled cars are usually a bit cheaper to build up front but will always need some kind of attention to keep them running. And even more attention to keep them running well.
This is about racing.
The street could be massively more costly than the race track. On the street things like radio's and air conditioning, squeaks and other noises could be Uber costly to fix at a dealership.
On the race track a properly set up vintage car remains to one set of specifications. No upgrades allowed. The skill of the driver determines finishing position
Now that statement was based on my experience 40 years of hard racing the engine/transmission rear end never once wore out or needed overhauling. racing and winning against famous professionals from Grand Prix and Indy
Tires lasted at least a season sometimes more . Brake pads at least two weekends and when pulled were often given to less prepared teams for another weekend
Again I don't know anything about Porsche 928S Are they that well made?
A real quick Google search found the Porsche 928 Racing page link follows. There's also YouTube videos
I knew a guy who autocrossed a 79 928. It wasn't exceptionally fast and I recall it took some effort to keep it running happy.
I'm not sure what it would take to build relevant power for road racing, much less if it would be reliable.
I get that you might love odd ducks frenchy, but the p-car parts tax is real. I have a feeling you could build a decent Camaro quite easily for what you would have in figuring out the 928, and you would have a much much easier time finding parts deals and not having to reinvent the wheel means purchasing once, instead of repeatedly. Simpler to work on is better for a novice wrencher too, he could probably literally go to a local library and find books on building a race engine for a Camaro boiled down for a novice.
Simply put, if everyone is doing it, there might be a reason.
Petrolicious had an article about a 928 racecar project a bunch of years ago - https://petrolicious.com/articles/this-modern-porsche-928-race-car-is-pure-gt-nostalgia
Seems that one raced in 1984 at the 24 Hours of Daytona, so there's some historical precedence for them being raced professionally. (picture from https://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Daytona-1984-02-05.html)
Also found some other historical race pictures - mostly looks like privateers- https://928srus.com/pages/historic-racing-928-pictures-from-1980-1990.
It was built to be a grand tourer and autobahn cruiser, not a race car, so I'm sure it's carrying a bunch of weight around that doesn't need to be there to race, but that also means there may not be be easily attainable race parts for the car unless you plan to fab your own. Not sure how authentic-to-period the SVRA is concerning eligibility. Do you have to build to a documented configuration that was raced back in the day?
I spent 2.5 hours in a 928 automatic at CMP. They had a secondary oil container with a transfer pump to squirt oil into the crankcase as it slowly burned over the 14.5 hour race. Handled like a dream on 245 width tires. They had messed with the trans making it a pseudo manual valve body. Not sure what, but it was crisp and quick. It's a Mercedes trans inside but a case unique to the Porsche.
Several have raced Lemons over the years and they've been well above average reliability. The transmission is stout and the engines are well engineered. They hold up well to abuse but when things do break they're complex to repair. The "not mechanically inclined" caveat for your friend concerns me on that front. But if he can follow directions he can figure it out, it's just a machine.
They're not as cheap as they used to be for sure. Who knows if we'll see them at Lemons again??
If your friend isn't an ace mechanic, he'd be better off with a Camaro or Mustang, simply because those cars are a dime a dozen and there's tons of tribal knowledge on how to build and maintain them. Parts are also cheap for the pony cars. The Porsche bones are very well engineered, but hardly anyone has raced them, and parts are probably scarce and really expensive. If he crashes it, it's one of only a few thousand, whereas if he crashes a Camaro or Mustang, it's one of literally millions.
But if he's foolish enough to do it, they sound great.
In reply to frenchyd :
In 1983, Z-28's did not make 160hp. That's the base 305ci V8. It was 190hp for the hottest 305, with 240lb/Ft.
Having worked for one of the best showroom stock racers of the 80's and 90's, I don't know why you think you have to spend several thousand on a Chevy V8 to race. Our F bodies in the IMSA Firehawk series did just fine. In '88, I broke in a few 305's on the dyno, and they made 255 with just a balance and blueprint allowed. We replaced one motor all season, across four cars, thanks to a faulty spring keeper.
In reply to racerfink :
Here we go...
I know of a 82 928 that runs really well. Its a manual transmission car. $5k.
frenchyd said:This is about racing.
The street could be massively more costly than the race track.
Right... because it's always cheaper to race a car than drive it on the street. 
This thread is going to contribute nicely to the drinking game I'm working on for the challenge...
Not sure why we need 650hp to go racing, I understand we may need that to be competitive but in no form of racing are the guys doing it on a shoestring competitive. It's relatively easy to build/buy a 650hp Chevrolet V8 that will live at a racetrack as always the answer is to look towards circle track racing.
racerfink said:In reply to frenchyd :
In 1983, Z-28's did not make 160hp. That's the base 305ci V8. It was 190hp for the hottest 305, with 240lb/Ft.
Having worked for one of the best showroom stock racers of the 80's and 90's, I don't know why you think you have to spend several thousand on a Chevy V8 to race. Our F bodies in the IMSA Firehawk series did just fine. In '88, I broke in a few 305's on the dyno, and they made 255 with just a balance and blueprint allowed. We replaced one motor all season, across four cars, thanks to a faulty spring keeper.
I just repeated what the video you provided said. Oops I went back and Re listened and you are right. It's 190 hp.
It's still less than a Porsche or Jaguar.
Regarding your dyno numbers. 255 is what it had at the flywheel not SAE Net the way they are rated.
As for durability under racing. I've raced small blocks. Got my SCCA LICENSE in a Corvette I built. Even with a dry sump and real good new forged etc. it was rare to get a season out of one. I did race a stone stock Target master and got a whole season out of it. Then pulled it and got almost a decade out of it in the 2 ton race car hauler. So it can happen.
By the way I bought all new Chevy's throughout my working career. 22 of them since 1972. Oops that was a Vega GT ( and I loved it).
I do know they don't have a great reputation in LeMons /Champcar.
Bottom line? When I build a Chevy Small block I use the high nickle 4 bolt main, everything forged inside and very meticulous assembly.
Since I got 40 years out of my Jaguar without a single failure And long time from the various Coventry Climax, etc. I built over the decades.
I always poke around for cheap 928s because I'm a fan of bubble butts and it pulls that look off perfectly.
They have a weird-ass rear suspension setup that I can't adequately describe; apparently only some Porsche dealers can adequately align them if they have experiences with them, so check on that. The Porsche SOHC V8 is nothing really special from my research, and even made comparable horsepower in the era to a common 350s (until the mid-late 80s) let alone what a modern LS swap can do, so I'd consider it if only to remove that issue of the porsche tax.
Like everyone else says, there's a reason few of these are raced. They're saloon cars first and foremost, and with rare parts on top of that it's hard to justify.
Byrneon27 said:This thread is going to contribute nicely to the drinking game I'm working on for the challenge...
Not sure why we need 650hp to go racing, I understand we may need that to be competitive but in no form of racing are the guys doing it on a shoestring competitive. It's relatively easy to build/buy a 650hp Chevrolet V8 that will live at a racetrack as always the answer is to look towards circle track racing.
You make a really good point. Why 650 horsepower? Well as I ask the guys I'm going to race with that's the number they say you need to be at the pointy end of Group 6 ). ( Trans Am A& B production ) I watched and a Pontiac guy who claimed 631 hp for his engine was 5-6 th through most of the race.
The interesting thing is a little 238 cu in Jag XKE was dicing it up with a couple of big block Corvettes. Only occasionally taking the lead But could tuck right in behind and stay with them on the straights then pop out and have a go at them when it got to the twisty bits.
As far as circle track racing goes. One of the leading engine builders for that is the guy I have do some machine work on engines. He's telling me they tend to be closer to 500 hp. I think torque out of the corners is more important than peak power to those guys.
GIRTHQUAKE said:I always poke around for cheap 928s because I'm a fan of bubble butts and it pulls that look off perfectly.
They have a weird-ass rear suspension setup that I can't adequately describe; apparently only some Porsche dealers can adequately align them if they have experiences with them, so check on that. The Porsche SOHC V8 is nothing really special from my research, and even made comparable horsepower in the era to a common 350s (until the mid-late 80s) let alone what a modern LS swap can do, so I'd consider it if only to remove that issue of the porsche tax.
Like everyone else says, there's a reason few of these are raced. They're saloon cars first and foremost, and with rare parts on top of that it's hard to justify.
That's what I'm reading ( about the rear suspension ). You are right it seems to take a magic touch to keep it from wanting to go around in circles at the corners.
It's smaller and a lot lighter than an XJS. But the Jag seems to do decent on track.
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