Tell me why I shouldn't turbo my Miata?

BoxheadTim wrote: I'm not sure it takes a ton of money to build a reliable turbo Miata but IME it takes a lot of care if you want to do it *right*. Unfortunately I don't see that sort of care taken that often by "forum eggspurts"...

I'm the type that doesn't like to piece-meal stuff together. I'm more of the "buy proven kits that work" so I can remove the guesswork and tinkering. I know some enjoy the build/tinkering aspect, I don't.

I like driving.

poopshovel wrote: Because you're a big fat scared ass Bob Costas? (I don't mean that. I'm just trying the negative motivation thing.) Read the next one, there's really not a cheap way to do it, at least that I can think of.

I am being a GIGANTIC Bob Costas when it comes to an FI track car. I refuse to accept anything less than an OE level of reliability while beating the living crap out of the car for ~2 hours a day at the track.

That said, can you send me some stuff from Frozen Pints? I will reward you handsomely with Internets, tattoo'd crazy hair'd girls wearing stockings and money.

Slippery wrote: I would just put the effort into getting an F20C from an S2000, they can be had for not much more than turboing a Miata. J

I don't have the skills for fabrication stuff like that. Even though I think a F22C would be freaking awesome.

Part of what draws me to the turbo is our local track (Hallett) is kind of a point and shoot track, so the torque would be awesome.

I've been running a '95 with a 2004 FMII since '08. Bought the car as "well sorted" from a club instructor whose kid also ran SM. All docs & receipts in order, nice guy, nice car, an honest deal.

It was not bulletproof. Took 2 seasons to get straightened out mechanically. 1st day out - melted turbo cooling & oiling hoses. 2nd day out - lost an injector signal due to crappy crimp connector. 3rd day out - snapped 3 turbo studs. I could go on for a while.

Over the years I've gotten it straightened out, but still fight leftover electrical gremlins from time to time. Thankfully (for you) the newer kits don't have as many wiring splices & such as the earlier ones did.

There are upgrades available for most of the old common failures (inconel studs, downpipe brace, braided lines, better cooling, etc, etc.). If you're working it hard you'll need all the above to stay off the Triple A Taxi.

Go in with your eyes wide open - these kits were designed for street use, not racing. If the kit vendors used club racers for their original R&D before hitting the market, turbo Miatas would have way better reputations and market values than they do now.

I do a full nut & bolt check before every trip to the track (6-8 track days & TT's a year) and still DNF once a season for one reason or another. The car is a lot of fun, but it'll never be as reliable as a lower powered NA motor.

I'm not trying to talk you in or out of anything, just relaying my experience. Good luck no matter which way you go!

Whenever someone asks me about turbo reliability, I always mention that the quality of the installation makes a big difference. As Dashpot has found, poorly routed oil lines, bad crimps and the like can be a pain in the patootie.

Dashpot wrote: Go in with your eyes wide open - these kits were designed for street use, not racing. If the kit vendors used club racers for their original R&D before hitting the market, turbo Miatas would have way better reputations and market values than they do now.

I'm not sure what classes allowed turbo Miatas in club racing 23 years ago when the first kits were put together. Even now, SCCA isn't a terribly friendly sanctioning body for them. We do work with people like Matt Andrews, the Time Attack champion in torture-testing parts.

Also, remember what state of the art was back in 1990 - a rising rate fuel pressure regulator was seen as pretty slick. The Link ECU was amazing when it was new. The kits have definitely evolved over the years - I'd like to think that's one thing systems like the FM II bring to the table over a homebrew setup.

Has this car been on a dyno? I have had students (NASA instructor here) that have sworn that they have 90 HP in their 1991 miata. My 1991 spec miata had 113 rampaging whp as proven on the dyno. If you are looking to win the HPDE Olympics, I would suggest that you leave the power alone and advance your track driving knowledge.

Carrying speed through the corner is more important than 5 or 25 HP right now. Spend the money on the driver. If you need power, 2k will buy you a pro spec miata head. Maybe less. The best part about this option is that you will be able to sell it for a minimal loss on your investment. The bottom end of your motor is probably just broken in and is good for making power. Call Stewart Racing Nd get a head. Or call race engineering etc etc. jut get a head and learn how to go fast with the power you have.

z31maniac wrote: If I was going to boost, I'd really like to at least do a stock-ish rebuild on the engine. But a low mile junkyard 1.8 seems like a better idea.

IMHO, there's absolutely no point to putting a turbo on a 1.6. The 1.8 is better in every way (except for being slightly heavier), anything you can do to a 1.6 you can do to a 1.8 for the same amount of money, and the 1.8's always going to have 200ccs more displacement available, plus provide the option of a better flowing head with VVT.

mattm wrote: Has this car been on a dyno? I have had students (NASA instructor here) that have sworn that they have 90 HP in their 1991 miata. My 1991 spec miata had 113 rampaging whp as proven on the dyno. If you are looking to win the HPDE Olympics, I would suggest that you leave the power alone and advance your track driving knowledge. Carrying speed through the corner is more important than 5 or 25 HP right now. Spend the money on the driver. If you need power, 2k will buy you a pro spec miata head. Maybe less. The best part about this option is that you will be able to sell it for a minimal loss on your investment. The bottom end of your motor is probably just broken in and is good for making power. Call Stewart Racing Nd get a head. Or call race engineering etc etc. jut get a head and learn how to go fast with the power you have.

Spec Miata engine != stock miata engine. 113whp is more than what the typical NA8 engine puts down.

The car wouldn't get turbo'd until next winter. I think I have 6 track days in the March/April/May alone.

I'll be spending plenty on driving time. And as mentioned, it's not about winning the HPDE Olympics, it's about having a car that is FUN! It's relatively fun now, but I like being pressed into the seat when I press the go pedal.

Keith Tanner wrote: Whenever someone asks me about turbo reliability, I always mention that the quality of the installation makes a big difference. As Dashpot has found, poorly routed oil lines, bad crimps and the like can be a pain in the patootie.

Dashpot wrote: Go in with your eyes wide open - these kits were designed for street use, not racing. If the kit vendors used club racers for their original R&D before hitting the market, turbo Miatas would have way better reputations and market values than they do now.

I'm not sure what classes allowed turbo Miatas in club racing 23 years ago when the first kits were put together. Even now, SCCA isn't a terribly friendly sanctioning body for them. We do work with people like Matt Andrews, the Time Attack champion in torture-testing parts. Also, remember what state of the art was back in 1990 - a rising rate fuel pressure regulator was seen as pretty slick. The Link ECU was amazing when it was new. The kits have definitely evolved over the years - I'd like to think that's one thing systems like the FM II bring to the table over a homebrew setup.

I agree, but I wasn't referring to a 20 year old setup. I was referring to a professionally installed 2004 kit with all the bells & whistles available at the time. The kit components and installation methods (8 crimps + 4 ballast resistors in the FI circuit alone...) were inferior to what is available today.

I applaud your efforts to continually improve the product, your customer service is tops as well.

Swank Force One wrote: I like the f20c but personally, I find that swap stupid. If you have a miata and want an f20c, sell the miata and add the money you'd spend from swapping the motor, and just buyan s2000 and have a better car.

I'm one of the few people that thinks the S2000 is a nice car, but it's really a different driving experience than a Miata. The S2000 is big and cushy and like experiencing a video game in that you get some of the sensations but you're still disconnected from the experience. The Miata is an MGB that doesn't leak oil, a small, light, direct, uncomplicated tool.

Reminds me of the "just buy a Camaro instead of putting a V8 in your RX-7" people. Completely different driving experience.

z31maniac wrote:

mattm wrote: Has this car been on a dyno? I have had students (NASA instructor here) that have sworn that they have 90 HP in their 1991 miata. My 1991 spec miata had 113 rampaging whp as proven on the dyno. If you are looking to win the HPDE Olympics, I would suggest that you leave the power alone and advance your track driving knowledge. Carrying speed through the corner is more important than 5 or 25 HP right now. Spend the money on the driver. If you need power, 2k will buy you a pro spec miata head. Maybe less. The best part about this option is that you will be able to sell it for a minimal loss on your investment. The bottom end of your motor is probably just broken in and is good for making power. Call Stewart Racing Nd get a head. Or call race engineering etc etc. jut get a head and learn how to go fast with the power you have.

Spec Miata engine != stock miata engine. 113whp is more than what the typical NA8 engine puts down. The car wouldn't get turbo'd until next winter. I think I have 6 track days in the March/April/May alone. I'll be spending plenty on driving time. And as mentioned, it's not about winning the HPDE Olympics, it's about having a car that is FUN! It's relatively fun now, but I like being pressed into the seat when I press the go pedal.

As always, it's your car and your choice. My spec makes 113 and the motor has never been opened. Totally bone stock just intake and exhaust. Consider getting the car on a dyno and figure out what you are actually working with.

In reply to Knurled:

I suppose it all comes down to preference at that point, but I find the s2000 far more involving than my Miata.

Dashpot wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Whenever someone asks me about turbo reliability, I always mention that the quality of the installation makes a big difference. As Dashpot has found, poorly routed oil lines, bad crimps and the like can be a pain in the patootie.

Dashpot wrote: Go in with your eyes wide open - these kits were designed for street use, not racing. If the kit vendors used club racers for their original R&D before hitting the market, turbo Miatas would have way better reputations and market values than they do now.

I'm not sure what classes allowed turbo Miatas in club racing 23 years ago when the first kits were put together. Even now, SCCA isn't a terribly friendly sanctioning body for them. We do work with people like Matt Andrews, the Time Attack champion in torture-testing parts. Also, remember what state of the art was back in 1990 - a rising rate fuel pressure regulator was seen as pretty slick. The Link ECU was amazing when it was new. The kits have definitely evolved over the years - I'd like to think that's one thing systems like the FM II bring to the table over a homebrew setup.

I agree, but I wasn't referring to a 20 year old setup. I was referring to a professionally installed 2004 kit with all the bells & whistles available at the time. The kit components and installation methods (8 crimps + 4 ballast resistors in the FI circuit alone...) were inferior to what is available today. I applaud your efforts to continually improve the product, your customer service is tops as well.

The 20-year-old comments had to do with "the original R&D before hitting the market". We made a major leap in the quality of design of the kits in 2006, although a 2004 setup was definitely better than it had been a half decade before. And it's been 9 years since 2004.

Those ballast resistors were to allow us to run what we considered a better injector, they weren't required on 1996 Miatas but were on your 1995 unfortunately. They did seem to be extremely reliable though. Professionally installed, well, you shouldn't have experienced crimp problems or melting lines in that case.

As for S2000, I've got a lot of respect for them. Definitely a different beast than a turbo Miata on the street, nobody's given me the keys to an S2000 on the track.

A local guy has an NA Miata that is a fully built track car with an S2000 motor in it. Not only is it insanely fast on the track but sounds absolutely incredible! Not sure what kind of power he is making, but it is a very cool car.

mattm wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

mattm wrote: Has this car been on a dyno? I have had students (NASA instructor here) that have sworn that they have 90 HP in their 1991 miata. My 1991 spec miata had 113 rampaging whp as proven on the dyno. If you are looking to win the HPDE Olympics, I would suggest that you leave the power alone and advance your track driving knowledge. Carrying speed through the corner is more important than 5 or 25 HP right now. Spend the money on the driver. If you need power, 2k will buy you a pro spec miata head. Maybe less. The best part about this option is that you will be able to sell it for a minimal loss on your investment. The bottom end of your motor is probably just broken in and is good for making power. Call Stewart Racing Nd get a head. Or call race engineering etc etc. jut get a head and learn how to go fast with the power you have.

Spec Miata engine != stock miata engine. 113whp is more than what the typical NA8 engine puts down. The car wouldn't get turbo'd until next winter. I think I have 6 track days in the March/April/May alone. I'll be spending plenty on driving time. And as mentioned, it's not about winning the HPDE Olympics, it's about having a car that is FUN! It's relatively fun now, but I like being pressed into the seat when I press the go pedal.

As always, it's your car and your choice. My spec makes 113 and the motor has never been opened. Totally bone stock just intake and exhaust. Consider getting the car on a dyno and figure out what you are actually working with.

Who cares if the dyno says 87 or 96, it doesn't change how it accelerates. I feel like your missing the point.

Oh well