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Rob_Mopar
Rob_Mopar New Reader
7/31/09 8:08 a.m.
ditchdigger wrote: Personally I would rather my tax dollars were spent taking dodge intrepids and ford explorers of the roads than funding some war somewhere. Think of it as highway beautification

Ouch. I'll let you have the Exploders but my Intrepid R/T has been very good to me. It does 21-22 MPG around town and 28-29 on the open highway. It's also done 121 MPH at Maxton and 16.0 at Cecil County Dragway. It's a good reasonably quick family sedan.

OK, the 2.7L cars were cursed from the beginning and the first generation had the plague in the transmission but for the most part those cars all have left the highways on their own.

-Rob

JmfnB
JmfnB SuperDork
7/31/09 8:11 a.m.

Think about the money cycle:

The government is giving ~ $4000 per car for 250,000 cars to be sold... One Billion Dollars.

The cars being crushed are being crushed at metal recyclers not automotive recyclers.

Metal recyclers are low in inventory right now because the Chinese are buying it all.

The Chinese are giving the US Government money by the boatload.

MiatarPowar
MiatarPowar HalfDork
7/31/09 8:24 a.m.

If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie HalfDork
7/31/09 9:02 a.m.

With all these old cars crushed, every old car in my driveway just increased in value. This will drive up the price of running used cars. People who can afford to buy new cars get a federal subsidy. Those who can't just got screwed again as usual. Not only will more used cars be taken off the market but there will be fewer cheap parts available at the pick and pull yards because these cars will not be going there.

This is just another rebate program. One being subsidized by the taxpayers instead of the industry. And Congress will expand the program because the people who are buying cars want it and the dealers and the manufacturers and their lobbyists want it.

Thinkkker
Thinkkker SuperDork
7/31/09 9:13 a.m.

Just remember that the car has to be titled and insured for a year prior to trade in for the clunker stuff. Though I am not sure it has to be in your name......but I would bet that is the case.

JmfnB
JmfnB SuperDork
7/31/09 9:16 a.m.
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.

That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related.

I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/31/09 9:20 a.m.
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

What a bunch of berkeleying horse E36 M3. This IS all supposedly in the name of the environment, right? "Don't recycle cars, just go get a NEW one!!! Don't recycle parts, just order NEW ones!!!" Ugh.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and it's dead for good...though I'm guessing the more likely scenario is that they'll just "fix" it by throwing metric berkeley tons of our money at the thing:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=8218841&page=1

Cotton
Cotton Reader
7/31/09 9:22 a.m.
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

That sucks. I'd love to have a nice Bronco like that.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie HalfDork
7/31/09 9:28 a.m.
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

..and the metal will then go to China and come back to us as cars that are cheaper than the ones Chrysler and Government Motors can build.

Strizzo
Strizzo SuperDork
7/31/09 9:33 a.m.
ditchdigger wrote: Personally I would rather my tax dollars were spent taking dodge intrepids and ford explorers of the roads than funding some war somewhere. Think of it as highway beautification

personally, i'd rather they just take less of my hard earned dollars

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
7/31/09 9:37 a.m.
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

Not true at all. We're a licensed yard with this program. The engines have to be seized, but we're allowed to part the cars, sell any and all of the parts off of them(except for the engines, which are destroyed), and the hulls have to be crushed within 6 months. If you look at the list of yards licensed to take these cars, most of them are auto salvage yards.

donalson
donalson SuperDork
7/31/09 9:39 a.m.
Snowdoggie wrote: With all these old cars crushed, every old car in my driveway just increased in value. This will drive up the price of running used cars. People who can afford to buy new cars get a federal subsidy. Those who can't just got screwed again as usual. Not only will more used cars be taken off the market but there will be fewer cheap parts available at the pick and pull yards because these cars will not be going there.

haha so I'm not the only one that thought about that.... "help the poor... till you can screw em"... on the other hand some of the nicest cars i've seen driving around are parked in the projects...

lol... this program saddens me the more and more I read about it :(

JmfnB
JmfnB SuperDork
7/31/09 9:53 a.m.
16vCorey wrote:
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.
Not true at all. We're a licensed yard with this program. The engines have to be seized, but we're allowed to part the cars, sell any and all of the parts off of them(except for the engines, which are destroyed), and the hulls have to be crushed within 6 months. If you look at the list of yards licensed to take these cars, most of them are auto salvage yards.

So I guess the recyclers are hand picked then?

According to the training we received, the only place we can even SELL the cars was Louis Padnos Metal Recyclers. The trainer stated the automotive scrapyards were being blocked from buying.

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
7/31/09 10:09 a.m.

Nope, not hand picked at all. They just used a pre-existing list. If you're a part of the ELVS program (End of Life Vehicle Solutions) you are automatically allowed to take the cars. Most salvage yards are part of the ELVS program. Here's a complete list of the yards that allowed to take the cars. http://www.cars.gov/files/ELVS_State/ELVS.pdf

Strizzo
Strizzo SuperDork
7/31/09 10:11 a.m.
JmfnB wrote:
MiatarPowar wrote: If I was to see an otherwise solid RX-8 in the junkyard with a locked engine because of this program, I may cry.
That's the rub. The cars will NOT go to junkyards. They go directly to the metal recyclers to be immediately crushed. Minimal parts can be removed from the vehicle and none of them safety related or drivetrain related. I am staring at a very nice 58K mile 1994 Ford Bronco 5.8L auto that will be murdered within the hour.

that's rediculous! those things sell for 6-8k on the private market! they should have just given them the 4500 in trade and put the damn thing on the lot with 6500 on the sticker and it'd be gone with a quickness

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
7/31/09 10:17 a.m.
JmfnB wrote: According to the training we received, the only place we can even SELL the cars was Louis Padnos Metal Recyclers. The trainer stated the automotive scrapyards were being blocked from buying.

What's probably happened there is the higher-ups made a deal with that particular recycler. I know some of the yards in town have been scrambling to make deals with the local dealers.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/31/09 11:26 a.m.

Just for the heck of it, I checked the requirements on the "cars.gov" website, then went to "fueleconomy.gov" or whatever to check the "new" estimates for my cars. Holy crap. They have my 91 Integra listed as getting 23 MPG combined. I average 32, with a lifetime best of 35 and change, apparently other drivers had similar results. Weird.

Karl La Follette
Karl La Follette Reader
7/31/09 11:30 a.m.

This program sucks and is bad for america and junk yard owners

Not all auto recyclers are relishing the government's new cash for clunkers program, which requires car dealers to destroy the gas-guzzlers they get as trade-ins from new car buyers.

Used engines and drive trains are a big part of recyclers' income from each scrapped car, and under the federal program those engines must be destroyed. The idea is to promote fuel efficiency and help automakers, but it comes at a time when more than a dozen U.S. auto parts suppliers have filed for bankruptcy this year.

"Why throw away good parts when the supply chain is in jeopardy? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense," said Michael Wilson, executive vice president of the Automotive Recyclers Association based in Manassas, Va.

Engines and drive trains account for 60 percent of recyclers' revenue from a used vehicle, Wilson said.

Under cash for clunkers, the government is advising car dealers to replace a trade-in's engine oil with a sodium silicate solution and run the engine to ruin it before giving or selling the car to a scrap dealer.

The Automotive Recyclers Association says that can damage otherwise sellable parts like pistons - and mean smaller profits for scrap yards, considering it can cost $700 to $1,200 to process a car, including transport and removing toxic items like mercury, Wilson said. Recyclers' profits vary but can reach several hundred dollars for a 6-year-old car.

"I haven't decided that I want the cars," said George Clark of Western Auto Recycling in Denver. Still, he said, he might make money crushing clunkers if he doesn't have to buy them from dealers.

The cash for clunkers program took effect July 1, and rules were published Friday. It offers drivers who trade in qualifying vehicles up to a $4,500 credit toward a new, more fuel-efficient car from participating dealers. The government reimburses dealers.

The Colorado Automobile Dealers Association estimates the $1 billion program could boost sales 10 percent or so for its roughly 260 dealers before it ends Nov. 1 - earlier if the federal money runs out. In April, the market research firm Auto Outlook Inc. estimated Colorado would have 108,510 new retail light-vehicle registrations in 2009.

Nationwide, an estimated 250,000 people could get credits, helping to spur sales at a time when industry sales are down 35 percent.

Some recyclers say cash for clunkers will hurt lower-income buyers who can't afford a new car, even with the federal credit. They also claim that destroying vehicles will increase prices for spare parts that lower-income customers depend on to keep their cars running.

"Now you're removing cars people could afford, and they're not available anymore," said Norm Wright, CEO of Stadium Auto and Truck Parts Inc., a Denver recycler. "There will be less cars to pull from, so the price of parts will go up."

At his warehouse next to Interstate 25, used transmissions fill shelves stacked almost as high as the 24-foot ceiling. Outside, rows of salvaged car doors hang from racks. Chrysler PT Cruisers, soon to be discontinued, are being stockpiled so parts are available for years to come.

Despite their misgivings, some auto recyclers are urging dealers to send the trade-ins to them instead of to auctioneers who could serve as middlemen for scrap yards. Recyclers and salvage auctions both have to certify they will follow rules for disposing of clunkers

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie HalfDork
7/31/09 12:02 p.m.
Karl La Follette wrote: "Why throw away good parts when the supply chain is in jeopardy? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense," said Michael Wilson, executive vice president of the Automotive Recyclers Association based in Manassas, Va.

It makes a whole lot of sense if you want to drive business into new car showrooms. If you can't get parts for your clunker, you have to go to the new car dealer and pony up. Even if you want to keep your car, you will have to buy your parts from the dealer at a higher cost if there are no parts at the wrecking yard. Remember this is all about pumping up business for manufacturers, car dealers and finance companies. The Wrecking yard guys just don't have enough lobbyists to get a bailout and the average guy has no right to cheap transportation.

car39
car39 Reader
7/31/09 12:13 p.m.

Typical goverment program: out of money, even though dollar one hasn't been issued, the computer system crashes so often you can't enter a claim, and the public is being told "All is well!" Thanks, Senator Blutarsky

Tim Baxter
Tim Baxter Online Editor
7/31/09 1:03 p.m.

Looks like they found an additional 2 Billion to throw at it.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/31/09 1:08 p.m.
Tim Baxter wrote: Looks like they stole an additional 2 Billion to throw at it.
JmfnB
JmfnB SuperDork
7/31/09 1:10 p.m.
poopshovel wrote:
Tim Baxter wrote: China bought more of the former United States of America for 13664200000 Chinese Yuan (Renminbi)
TJ
TJ HalfDork
7/31/09 1:18 p.m.
TJ wrote: Program lasted a whole week before it ran out of money. How long to we get soaked for another billion to pay for another week?

Wow, I was wrong. It only took one day to soak us for $2 Billion - I guess we get two weeks of this crap this time. Start the count down till the next emergency when they can throw more money at the problem.

speedblind
speedblind Reader
7/31/09 1:22 p.m.

The behind the scenes drama on this program is very, very interesting. Lots of misinformation out there, but it is correct that an additional $2billion has been thrown at the program and NHTSA's issued a statement that any and all deals made will be honored.

As of the middle of this week, not all dealers were even able to register for the program. Still, everybody's been surprised (NHTSA in particular) at how many deals have been made so quickly.

And nobody was prepared for the gov't's "creative" revision of combined fuel economy figures earlier this week - especially not dealers that have been making deals and letting customers drive off since July 1st!

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