This EPA filing and the consent agreement reached with Harley may well have some very far reaching effects on the sort of tuning modifications done to our machines.
EPA vs Harley Davidson
Harley painted a bulls eye on themselves, offering non-legal engine tuning and exhausts from the factory, dealer installed, prior to the owner even taking posession of the bike.
I'd say this has already had an effect.
Ducati is another one that is pretty verbose about doing illegal modifications to their bikes for customers. But, I just looked at Ducati's web page, and see that they've already removed any offer to retune a bike, and several of the illegal exhausts are gone.
Another area that might get targeted, chainsaws. EPA standards already wreak havoc on chainsaws, making them hot as the dickens and prone to burning out in just a few hours. Standard tricks are to reset them rich, increase the 2-stroke oil a little, and pull off the catalytic converter. All the makers offer non-catalytic exhaust replacements. Or at least they did. Haven't looked as of today to see.
I am amazed that California somehow has them inline. None of the SoCal dealers will do modifications to exhausts or tunes on brand new bikes and often have a "separate" company that does it.
Harley turds did it to themselves. To bad for the real riders who kept things quiet, legal, and stock.
If you modify the exhaust on a vehicle, the world will suddenly end. Leave it alone. Apparently.
pinchvalve wrote:
If you modify the exhaust on a vehicle, the world will suddenly end. Leave it alone. Apparently.
I think the coal rolling crowd might be the visible ones making things worse for the rest of us.
I would imagine there will be a way to certify modifications for road-going cars. The lobby is strong. At least for most of us. If we want to track a car, swapping a test-pipe in place of a cat in a paddock isnt really that big of a deal for most of us if we are really worried about heat over a looong track session. Hell those of us with welders could make the part in our garage easily enough for most cars.
Honda will sell you factory HPD-branded cat deletes, straight pipes and all sorts of other stuff, but you have to show a sanctioning body license or membership number (can't remember which) and a prior racing result (IIRC a local autocross was enough to suffice) before you can gain access to their wares.
I would not be entirely surprised to see the performance tuning industry trend in that direction. There will always be CARB-certified cat back exhausts and shorty intakes and what not for the people who just want to make a car "theirs," while the real go-fast parts will be reserved for those who need them for their intended purpose.
Appleseed wrote:
Harley turds did it to themselves. To bad for the real riders who kept things quiet, legal, and stock.
Yeah, quiet and legal, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/pEnw1OKyOV4
Appleseed wrote:
Harley turds did it to themselves. To bad for the real riders who kept things quiet, legal, and stock.
So, I guess you're a turd. After all, you brag about "cafe-ing out" your little Honda Twimstar. And that's not stock, not quiet, and probably not legal.
Appleseeds "TwimStar" page
jstein77 wrote:
Appleseed wrote:
Harley turds did it to themselves. To bad for the real riders who kept things quiet, legal, and stock.
Yeah, quiet and legal, like this:
Those kinds of idiots do exist, but I'd say they're far outnumbered by the people riding around on V-twin cruiser bikes with straight pipes.
stuart in mn wrote:
jstein77 wrote:
Appleseed wrote:
Harley turds did it to themselves. To bad for the real riders who kept things quiet, legal, and stock.
Yeah, quiet and legal, like this:
Those kinds of idiots do exist, but I'd say they're far outnumbered by the people riding around on V-twin cruiser bikes with straight pipes.
That's something that really annoys me. I keep my bikes quiet.
When I saw the thread title. I thought it was referring to tuner mods of the future. I had visions of tuning the Auto Drive to Hans Stuck mode in the wet, Or Colin McRae on loose surfaces. Or if I've got a date I want to impress, tune the auto drive to Senna On slicks in the wet.
We will always rise above the EPA. We are strong. We are fast. We don't give a crisp.
In reply to foxtrapper:
Oooh...the butthurt. Hit a little close to home?
For every hipster pulling out the baffles on his KZ400, or sportbike squid with a D&D pipe, there are 10-20 times the Harley weenie with the stereotypical BWWWAAAHHHH exhaust around here.
The real riders I'm talking about are the Harley guys (and girls) who enjoy riding their bikes rather than using them as a look at me fashion accessory.
BTW, the Murdercycle is still running the stock pipes because I haven't found anything better for that obscure lump.
pointofdeparture wrote:
I would not be entirely surprised to see the performance tuning industry trend in that direction. There will always be CARB-certified cat back exhausts and shorty intakes and what not for the people who just want to make a car "theirs," while the real go-fast parts will be reserved for those who need them for their intended purpose.
FYI, you don't need CARB certification for exhaust after the cat.
Apexcarver wrote:
I would imagine there will be a way to certify modifications for road-going cars.
That's what the EO system in California is.
It's not going to get any easier for those of us who modify cars. We're taking future CARB certification into account on every new product, and it's changing our direction for some of these parts.
Appleseed wrote:
In reply to foxtrapper:
Oooh...the butthurt. Hit a little close to home?
For every hipster pulling out the baffles on his KZ400, or sportbike squid with a D&D pipe, there are 10-20 times the Harley weenie with the stereotypical BWWWAAAHHHH exhaust around here.
The real riders I'm talking about are the Harley guys (and girls) who enjoy riding their bikes rather than using them as a look at me fashion accessory.
BTW, the Murdercycle is still running the stock pipes because I haven't found anything better for that obscure lump.
Nope. Mine is stock and quiet. You're the one modifying a bike while decrying folk who modify bikes.
Don't say tuner when you point the finger at open exhaust. Any "tuner" knows that open exhaust on the street leaves torque on the table. And you need the torque to get off the line and get your junk moving. That is why you hear the squids running around 1 or 2 gears lower that needed. A Dork in training is 5 steps ahead of that.... (maybe 10)
Can't blame the ass jewelry douche's either, if our legislators have mandated cat converters on a chainsaw. BERKLY!!! That is beurocracy off the rails, self important save us from ourselves dogooders looking for ways to preserve their jobs and elevate their position.
bentwrench wrote:
Don't say tuner when you point the finger at open exhaust.
Most of the filing from EPA had to to with the Screamin' Eagle tuner kits. Sold knowing they are going on street bikes, and being installed on new bikes prior to the buyer taking ownership.
Like I said, Ducati seems to have already responded, pulling some of their goodies off the market. I don't see anything now about tuning options from Ducati on their web page, and only a few exhaust choices.
foxtrapper wrote:
Appleseed wrote:
In reply to foxtrapper:
Oooh...the butthurt. Hit a little close to home?
For every hipster pulling out the baffles on his KZ400, or sportbike squid with a D&D pipe, there are 10-20 times the Harley weenie with the stereotypical BWWWAAAHHHH exhaust around here.
The real riders I'm talking about are the Harley guys (and girls) who enjoy riding their bikes rather than using them as a look at me fashion accessory.
BTW, the Murdercycle is still running the stock pipes because I haven't found anything better for that obscure lump.
Nope. Mine is stock and quiet. You're the one modifying a bike while decrying folk who modify bikes.
Modifying exhaust, of which I haven't done. You did read the end of my post, right?
Loud pipes cause emphanezma.
bentwrench wrote:
Can't blame the ass jewelry douche's either, if our legislators have mandated cat converters on a chainsaw. BERKLY!!! That is beurocracy off the rails, self important save us from ourselves dogooders looking for ways to preserve their jobs and elevate their position.
This. And I'll leave it at that before I flounder this thread.
Am I the only one that thinks requiring cats on a chainsaw to save the planet while it cuts down the trees the planet needs is more than a little silly?.
bentwrench wrote:
Don't say tuner when you point the finger at open exhaust. Any "tuner" knows that open exhaust on the street leaves torque on the table. And you need the torque to get off the line and get your junk moving. That is why you hear the squids running around 1 or 2 gears lower that needed. A Dork in training is 5 steps ahead of that.... (maybe 10)
Don't talk about things of which you do not know.
An open exhaust doesn't hurt torque, you don't want backpressure (why does myth persist?!?!?!?!). The problem is people going TOO LARGE on the exhaust piping and subsequently losing velocity and scavenging, which is why it hurts torque.
Thanks for playing.
I love how people keep harping on it being a Harley thing and harping on the loud pipe douches. This was a shot across the bow of every OEM manufacturer that offers any kind of alteration from how the engine was certified. HD were the target because they were the big guns having sold 339,000 of these tuners in seven years. I find it hard to imagine many other companies selling that many tuners over the same time period. HD was the big one, the little ones will follow. Either by seeing what the EPA did to HD and wising up, or facing the same situation HD found themselves in.
kevlarcorolla wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks requiring cats on a chainsaw to save the planet while it cuts down the trees the planet needs is more than a little silly?.
Only if you think CO2 is what they are regulating. But catalysts make more of it from the exhaust.
It would be interesting to see the numbers comparing a 2 stroke vs. a car. I know the data exists, as the regulations came in prior to tier3. Just haven't seen it.
