THE GRMers REINVENT NASCAR THREAD!

You know it's funny that most of the people on here described a different racing series that is already in place that doesn't draw as many fans all year as nascar does in a race.

Tube Chassis silhouette cars on a road course: Check. Trans Am, DTM, and V8 supercars

Stockish cars on a road course: Check. IMSA, PWC, Porsche Cup, Ferrari Challenge, etc in the US and the FIA GT3 series/WEC globally along with all of the spec car series.

The overall money has gone down from Nascar with the death of the tobacco era. I've been going to events since the early 90's and the difference you see now is a lot less corporate sponsorship. With that comes a lot of corporate ticket packages. They built up so much capacity at the tracks to host all of the money and now it's just too much. Even with that, they still pull 100K a race for most venues.

The could definitely reduce the length of the race weekends too. 4 days is too long. It should be 3 days max.

Dirt tracks. Eldora is the only NASCAR race I watch.

slefain wrote: Two words: figure eight

This is by far the best idea yet, for the championship race, make the intersection an even ramp. The potential for mid air collisions sounds awesome. Obviously need gnarly cages or safety

bludroptop wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

Storz wrote:

bludroptop wrote: Austrailan V8 Supercars Change the accents to North Carolina. Soup.

100% this

You guys do realize that the Aussie rules are quickly becoming spec, too, right? Like Nascar, the chassis are almost identical, and bear no resemblance to what they are supposed to be. Just like all other racing, it's 99% entertainment, 1% useful tech.

Couldn't care less about the spec aspect. I'm focused entirely on the quality of entertainment. What I've seen of the Aussie racing is very compelling, but would still allow for the driver celebrity, sponsorship exposure and traveling circus freakshow that is NASCAR.

Like bump drafting? Or lots of contact? Or forced pits?

The only difference between the two series is just the circle v road course. When NASCAR runs road courses, they are very similar kind of races.

It's kind of sad that a minority of people who like road racing disparage the majority who like circle track racing....

You know what's really interesting to think about....

Much of the "best" racing was when it was more accessible to the skilled. More than one smart guy in a garage put together an F1 team, an Indy Car program, created a CanAm car, made their own TransAm package, etc. One could buy a new Alfa, and go to Sebring to run the 12 hour race, or get a Austin Healy and race the 24 hour race in France.

None of that is possible anymore.

But on a relative basis, it's far, far, far more likely that the skill set that is at the top of the heap here at GRM could put a Sprint Cup car together. So the most accessible top racing program, everyone hates.

Funny how that is.

The chase is based on points. a driver has to be in the top 16 in points to get in. then they have points for each segment. guy with the most points wins. emphasis is on winning each race.

I would start by tweaking the rules and removing the Chase.

1) If you intentionally take some one out, you loose 2 laps for the person you spun, and an additional lap for each car involved in the aftermath.

2) Laps under caution dont count.

3) Their will be racing in the rain, rain tires... tech that can roll down to to street cars. 3a) No spec tire brand, allow multiple brands, set durometer ranges for each track.

4) No Green White Checker, I think this will lessen the occurrences of intentional yellow flags in the last few laps.

Lets start there for the rules.

kazoospec wrote: Run 2 Dayton races. Second time on the Road Course.

Same for the Michigan Intentional Speedway races, they have a Stirling Moss designed road course that rarely gets used for anything.

alfadriver wrote:

bludroptop wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

Storz wrote:

bludroptop wrote: Austrailan V8 Supercars Change the accents to North Carolina. Soup.

100% this

You guys do realize that the Aussie rules are quickly becoming spec, too, right? Like Nascar, the chassis are almost identical, and bear no resemblance to what they are supposed to be. Just like all other racing, it's 99% entertainment, 1% useful tech.

Couldn't care less about the spec aspect. I'm focused entirely on the quality of entertainment. What I've seen of the Aussie racing is very compelling, but would still allow for the driver celebrity, sponsorship exposure and traveling circus freakshow that is NASCAR.

Like bump drafting? Or lots of contact? Or forced pits? The only difference between the two series is just the circle v road course. When NASCAR runs road courses, they are very similar kind of races. It's kind of sad that a minority of people who like road racing disparage the majority who like circle track racing....

Quote, quote, quote, quote...

I don't believe I ever disparaged NASCAR, but I thought this was about what could make it better.

Anyway, after mostly ignoring this forum for a while I thought I'd try again. I'll bow out now - y'all have fun.

bludroptop out

In reply to bludroptop:

Interesting that you don't consider "travelling freakshow that is NASCAR" as not disparaging. That is what you posted. Kinda hard to interpret that without thinking that you don't like it.

All I pointed out was that NASCAR is more like V8 Supercars than not. So it's not much change.

c-ya.

I find it odd that every one is approaching it from the perspective that something is wrong with it that needs to be fixed. I don't see that. I would love to see dirt tracks and a couple more road courses but I don't see making the wholesale changes that most are calling for.

I love racing, oval, road, rally, desert, boats, planes, semi trucks, swamp buggies I'll watch it all. The only thing I'm not a huge fan of is drag racing. Watching the Winston Cup on Sunday was my first introduction to motorsports, my Dad and I watched every race every Sunday until he died in 1998. And while I may not be as huge of a fan of it as I use to be I will never turn my back on it.

Someone mentioned adding more road courses, but doing it on the superspeedway infield courses. I think this would be brilliant. I acknowledge that one of the biggest reasons that NASCAR fans give for being fans is being able see the entire track. It seems to me, adding several infield course races would be just the thing to satisfy the circle track fans and road race fans simultaneously. I also do know, inspite of some of my previous comments, that quite a few NASCAR drivers have been working very hard the last few years to get better at road racing, and the infield courses would be the perfect way for them to show off their more rounded driving skills (see what I did there?!?) to race fans of all types. Do you guys think the France family could really think that idea would be bad for business?

bludroptop wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

Storz wrote:

bludroptop wrote: Austrailan V8 Supercars Change the accents to North Carolina. Soup.

100% this

You guys do realize that the Aussie rules are quickly becoming spec, too, right? Like Nascar, the chassis are almost identical, and bear no resemblance to what they are supposed to be. Just like all other racing, it's 99% entertainment, 1% useful tech.

Couldn't care less about the spec aspect. I'm focused entirely on the quality of entertainment. What I've seen of the Aussie racing is very compelling, but would still allow for the driver celebrity, sponsorship exposure and traveling circus freakshow that is NASCAR.

I belive this is a perception argument. Not American = cool. As a fan of V8 Supercars, one of the things I like about it is how it is similar to NASCAR. It is very fan friendly. It is the blue-collar motorsport for the Aussies. That aspect of NASCAR is what really seems to be the argument that the die-hard NASCAR bashers use the most. There is usually a classist element to their arguments. The term "redneck" is thrown around a lot.

The Daytona 500 has a ferris wheel, as does LeMans. A big tent or two, and a few snobby clowns driving bmws... that seems like a circus.

I have a really hard time sitting through most normal sporting events if I don't have a team that I'm rooting for. There is no way I'm watching two random NFL teams that I don't care about play each other. I bet that is true for most people with most sports. I think that it why Nascar is more popular than other forms of racing. Nascar has done a good job of marketing the drivers as much or more than the sport itself. It certainly isn't that the racing is more exciting than other forms of racing, because its not. People know the names, they know the car numbers, they know the drama between the drivers, and it gets them to care about it. If you painted all the cars white with random numbers and didn't say who was driving, people wouldn't watch. I don't know the names of the PWC drivers but many factors make the races more watchable for me.

There is also the fact that the nascar races are long enough to get good and drunk while watching. That probably helps too.

Get rid of the "teams", at the 500 the end was Gibbs cars running as a pack. Back to owner drivers and nobody is guaranteed a starting position. Tear down most of the mile and a half tracks. Try running a race in Europe.

I happen to be a NASCAR fan and have been to numerous races and at one time was a supplier to some of the teams. NASCAR is much more High Tech then given credit for. The fact that a piece of one inch long tape on the grill/air intake can change the handling and also shows the cars are being driven on the very edge by some very talented drivers. Every rule both body wise and engine is pushed to the very limit for an advantage.

At any rate every now and then the drivers will mention it and I think most of the races are too long. Shortening most of the races (other then the 1/2 and 1 mile tracks)by a hundred miles would provide better racing and take away the period of time when most drivers get in line and just ride. This is especially true at Daytona and Talledega when drivers know they can't win unless they are there at the end and try and avoid the wrecks.Shorter races would also mean less pit stops and take away the dreaded fuel mileage strategy. Shorter races would also have more excitement because it would be important to not only get to the front but also stay there. Just my two cents!

Add more road courses.

Bringing this back up. Totally random thought this morning. NASCAR runs TUSCAR and writes the rules for the Daytona prototypes. NASCAR is so far removed from the concept of Stock cars these days why even bother with the pretend bodies, they are just bill boards. Scrap that and run DP's instead. Still have an equivalency formula for power, weight, fuel etc., but it opens up different engine configurations and could draw in more manufacturers. Let's face it you already have the 'Corvette' Daytona Prototype which looks as much like a Corvette as a NASCAR Camry looks like a beige grocery getter.

I still wouldn’t watch as I find the concept of 30 cars going around and around for 3 hours in a pack simply uninteresting, but it appeals to millions.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Why change them from a layout that mirrors the thousands of stockcars that fans see running at short tracks all over the country into what people who admit they still won't watch them think they should be?

dean1484 wrote:

kazoospec wrote: Run 2 Dayton races. Second time on the Road Course.

Run 250 miles on the oval and then 250 on the road course and you have to use the same car with out changing anything. The winner's (if there are two) then have a best 2 out of 3 drag race down pit road to determine the event winner. The drag race has to be done on the same tires and you can not add any fuel.

for every NASCAR event!

NOHOME wrote: Buy car on Monday from dealer. Don't open the hood. Install a bunch of safety E36 M3. Race car on Sunday. Sell whatever is left on Monday. Repeat as necessary. Teams are free to switch car companies from week to week if they decide one brand is faster.

also good

Wall-e wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Why change them from a layout that mirrors the thousands of stockcars that fans see running at short tracks all over the country into what people who admit they still won't watch them think they should be?

This is the internet, stop bringing logic and intelligent comments to my totally random thoughts

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Small correction- DP goes away next year. The endurance rules are getting closer to LeMans.

Maybe change NASCAR to GT3 or GTLm rules? Then we can watch Ford GT's against Chevy Vettes and add in Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, let Lexus come for Toyota, etc... But to get the fans, you'd have to run them on the ovals.

Given that people have the choice of watching sports cars go around Daytona (even for a short race) but the choice to watch them on the Oval seems to be a pretty big draw, in comparison.

I'm taking another shot at this. I am sure Helton is reading this.

First of all, Alfa may have been onto something very interesting that he didn't mean to be on to. If the top hear at GRM can field a competitive car, maybe that's what we should do. Any racing series is infinitely more interesting if you're participating. I don't want any racing on TV, but if I was tapped on the shoulder to drive (of, I have better chances of every Victoria's Secret model for the past fifteen years tapping me on the shoulder within the next fifteen minutes, but still) for any racing series at all, I would do it,a nd I'm sure most of us would too.

Aside from a GRM themed entry (random decals like "My car is the E36 M3" and "Berk this!"), I have some real ideas.

NHRA has one huge major weakness. All of the tracks pretty much have to be the same. NASCAR doesn't have this issue. They can make the tracks anything they want! Why not mix it up LIKE CRAZY!? Let's not just stay with short tracks, superspeedways and one mile stuff. Let's keep the superspeedways, keep the roadcourses, and short tracks, and add in some dirt oval flat tracks, maybe some bizarre races like Dean said, two short races then a drag race. That's a great idea! Yes, I am serious. The NHRA has a big problem. If you tune in and miss the into, you have to try really hard to find out what track they are at. They could be all at the same place and just pretend and it would be tough to find out. Why cripple NASCAR with that same thing? If every race is different, and every race counts, then it becomes super interesting every time. Also, it almost ensures that no one team is going to dominate the season, so we can get rid of the chase.

So we limit every race to an hour. Maybe 90 minutes. Every race. If the yellow flag flies with 10 laps to go, then the checkers flies at the same time.

On the cost side, let's limit them to one engine, maybe three sets of tires for the weekend. Engines must be use the same engine block as currently offered by OEM backdated for four years. Driven wheels must remain the same as OEM.

In reply to tuna55:

kinda am, kinda not.

But I do know a few guys here at F who have tiny teams who are just outside of the top 3 series (almost truck and almost ARCA way back). Yes, a lot of their work is aided by some solid engineering ability, I don't see that as so far off of many skill sets on this board.

And a few posters have been involved in circle track racing.

For sure, the best bang for your buck getting into racing as a business is that path. Which CAN lead into other racing- if you want to- ask Gene Haas. Ok- bad example, since he's got a machining business...

Then again, maybe not...

After reading the comments and rethinking what I had said, I would leave it alone and just try and get more road courses. I still belive that the key to increasing the popularity (and thereby the sustainability) of road racing is to get it in front of the largest crowd of motorsport fans in the country. That and trying to break down the classist bs that seems to have taken hold since the 80s. It seems to me that back in the 60s and 70s, and earlier. That there were not as much division. Car nuts watched it all and drivers moved between racing series.

I don't watch that much NASCAR but sometimes I leave it on in the background while doing stuff around the house. I've been to a couple of races in Texas Motor Speedway over the last 10 years and enjoyed myself both times.

Time seems to be a big issue for folks but we don't seem to have an issue with endurance racing. It took me the better part of two weeks to watch all of the Daytona 24hr race that I recorded. Part of that was milking it because there was no other racing for a while and part of it was watching anything for hours on end can get dull. Being there was great though.

I'm also a bit odd. I like the American cars but like road racing. I don't understand why the two have become mutually exclusive. I also don't buy into the supposed superiority of foreign cars in that format.