The Official Challenge Rules Questions Thread

Challenge logic-get and install crappy used versions of the parts you are going to run and apply whatever budget hit that gives you. Now they are on the car they can be replaced with new OEM quality parts at no budget hit.

MrJoshua wrote: Challenge logic-get and install crappy used versions of the parts you are going to run and apply whatever budget hit that gives you. Now they are on the car they can be replaced with new OEM quality parts at no budget hit.

As a first time builder I like the logic here, but I gotta say it leaves me feeling icky. Not dropped the soap in the prison shower icky, more shoes stuck to the floor of the movie theater icky.

By this logic I could buy a Corvette that has flood damage for $2015, replace everything with stock parts, and compete with a brand new car. Right?

In reply to Junkyard_Dog: I think the rule in question applies only to brake parts. Plus-I'd welcome your hypothetical flood damaged Vette to the Challenge so I can watch it get chewed up and spit out by a $2015 Miata.

MrJoshua wrote: Challenge logic-get and install crappy used versions of the parts you are going to run and apply whatever budget hit that gives you. Now they are on the car they can be replaced with new OEM quality parts at no budget hit.

Where the heck did THAT rule come from???

In reply to Junkyard_Dog: as a three time challenger, just trying to bring back an old challenge car. We are only talking brake parts and not anything high performance. More safety than corvette level braking here....

In reply to MrJoshua: that is why I asked the question as I would rather buy new rotors and calipers and install stock new pads and move on to better parts of the build. The rotors in question are a joke to most of you, but anything is an upgrade over the stock Spitfire pieces. I understand the concern about abuse of the concept of the brakes exemption, but we are not talking about putting corvette brakes on a miata, just using bolt on replacement parts from non-high performance applcations.

In reply to dherr:

You've made your point. Some folks disagree with your logic.

You've also said you would wait for an official response. I think that would be a good idea.

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: Challenge logic-get and install crappy used versions of the parts you are going to run and apply whatever budget hit that gives you. Now they are on the car they can be replaced with new OEM quality parts at no budget hit.

Where the heck did THAT rule come from???

You can replace worn brake parts with like replacements. My Citi-Car now has used Miata brakes, can I not replace them with new or rebuilt Miata parts free from budget when they wear out? Heck, say our challenge Miata got 1.8 brakes along the way, couldn't we refresh them with new or rebuilt parts budget free according to the rules?

MrJoshua wrote:

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: Challenge logic-get and install crappy used versions of the parts you are going to run and apply whatever budget hit that gives you. Now they are on the car they can be replaced with new OEM quality parts at no budget hit.

Where the heck did THAT rule come from???

You can replace worn brake parts with like replacements. My Citi-Car now has used Miata brakes, can I not replace them with new or rebuilt Miata parts free from budget when they wear out? Heck, say our challenge Miata got 1.8 brakes along the way, couldn't we refresh them with new or rebuilt parts budget free according to the rules?

I think that is a stretch.

2015 Rules said: The purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans.

Sounds like "shenanigans" to me.

Honestly, I am much more on board with what dherr is proposing.

I think it's time for GRM to weigh in to this thread.

In reply to MrJoshua:

If you are referring to "our Challenge Miata" as in the one sitting in my garage, it does not have 1.8 brakes on it. It has 1.6 OEM brakes (pads, rotors, and calipers) on it (I know, I put them on).

when we built the XJ-R we swapped in a ford 8.8 for a few reasons, strength, gearing, LSD, same bolt pattern, and the disk brakes. the calipers and hoses were in usable condition but the pads were missing iirc and the rotors nasty. because they were a part of an addition to the vehicle that in any way was intended to improve performance (realized or not) we felt they were to be included, even if replacing with oem stuff. i found a new set of 'coolvue' pads for around $7 and found a pair of somewhat better condition rotors (that were being thrown away from someone else's brake job) and took an angle grinder to them to clean things up.

if the rear axle upgrade had good condition brakes attatched it likely could have cost us more in the first place. i think i'm with Paul on the 'included' side but i see the murkier layers in your build too. but then isnt that one of the compromises that makes the challenge a challenge when picking the initial car?

I think it's a silly rule. Refreshing brakes can be done cheaply, and I think it should be in budget, but the rule allows for refreshing brakes out of budget for safety reasons. Safety isn't limited to stock builds. Can Aussie not refresh his MG' s brakes because they aren't stock MG? For the lowest budget hit Herr should start with used parts like most people who upgraded their challenge car's brakes did. Then he has every right to refresh his brakes like you did on your challenge car, whether they came stock or not.

In reply to MrJoshua:

I am not arguing with you (or dherr).

In reply to MrJoshua: Based upon the current rules, it does sound like I can use junkyard prices in my budget for the brake "upgrade", so the FMV for used rotors, calipers and pads from the various cars would be included in my budget. Then under the "safety" provision, I can replace with new parts. Would be good to get the official verdict from the GRM brass, but I can definitely see how the rules can be interpreted in this way.

SVreX wrote: In reply to MrJoshua: I am not arguing with you (or dherr).

You called it shenanigans. So you may not be arguing with my interpretation, but you did call it names.

In reply to MrJoshua:

Look at the bright side. At least I didn't call anyone a Bob Costas.

SVreX wrote: In reply to MrJoshua: Look at the bright side. At least I didn't call anyone a Bob Costas.

Awwww, you're really just a Bob Costascat aren't you.

Budget questions. We have the original Craigslist ad from when we bought the car. We did not get a bill of sale as we didn't expect to need it since it would be a race car and not licensed. Is a bill of sale required? Also, we bought a second car as a roller for parts, I have just a hand written bill of sale from the P.O., is that acceptable? I also have a second Craigslist ad for a similar car at a similar price for FMV purposes. My assumption is that would be acceptable as well, is that correct?

DLD

In reply to DLD:

Documentation is required. A Bill of Sale is not.

Whatever way you are able to document it.

Sounds like you are covered.

SVreX wrote: In reply to DLD: Documentation is required. A Bill of Sale is not. Whatever way you are able to document it. Sounds like you are covered.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/

Thanks.

I have another question. What is the best way for us to document sales of items removed from our car?

DLD

Give them a receipt and photocopy it?

SVreX wrote: Give them a receipt and photocopy it?

Thanks. Sounds reasonable enough.

dherr wrote: I understand the rules pertaining to braking systems and the change allow "stock" brake parts such as rotors, calipers, pads, lines are all "free" in the budget as a safety measure (and a good one). For my particular car, so little of the car is stock, so please help me in determining what is budget and what is free for 2015. Car - Triumph Spitfire body and frame with substantial modifications for a Ford 2.3 Turbocoupe engine and 5 speed. Complete rear suspension from a Mazda RX7 Turbo II. So for the rear suspension (not free), I was using stock rotors, calipers and pads, so these are all "free" as budget items, correct? For the front, the car is running Triumph GT6 spindles (not free), but the new rear brakes will easily overcome the front brakes, so I am upgrading in the following manner: Rotors - Peugeot 305 Stock rotors (vented, same diameter and dimensions as a GT6)- Not free? Calipers- Toyota Four Runner 4 piston calipers (common Triumph upgrade) - Not free? Toyota stock front pads - Free or not free? Goal here being to create a more balanced braking system, not set a stopping system record. The last time my Spitfire ran at the drags, it was getting hard to stop at well over 100 with the crappy stock spitfire mini disks and drum TR7 brakes. I understand that performance pads, rotors, etc would be a budget item, but was not completely sure about stock components used from other cars that just happen to fit?

You bought the Spitfire, GT6 Spindles, RX-7 rear, and have documented proof. Any stock replacement brake part for those items are legal non-budget replacements. Any upgrade to those components is not stock and a budgetted component.

Andrew

SVreX wrote: If you are "well over 100 mph" in the drags, you are one of the top contenders. I don't think Andy or Pat are running stock brakes. You might just have to take the hit.

If you're referring to me, my name is Andrew. If you're referring to Andy, he can answer the comments/questions.
As far as our cars are concerned, all brake parts used have been stock to whatever axle/spindle was used except the yellow coupe. Every brake part on the front axle of the coupe was in the budget because it was an upgrade to the axle/spindle, even though it came off a stock car.
Simply stated, all cars, spindles and axles have been shown in the budget(s). All stock replacement brake parts for the cars, budgetted spindles and budgetted axles have been exempt. All stock parts used to upgrade the budgetted spindles and buddeted axles are in our budget sheets. I have a letter from GRM endorsing this included in my budget sheets when/where applicable.