The Official Challenge Rules Questions Thread

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:

Here you go. You're welcome. https://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/cto/4726305939.html

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:

You are correct on all accounts, but there will be a pretty decent cash prize going to the winner. Again we are looking for a cool last minute, feel good type story.

Lof8 wrote: Really? I'm 99% sure I did not even pack any long pants last year.

I brought pants this year, but didn't need them :)

I brought them too, and the track officials made me put them on.

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:

Did you guys make it?

Which car was yours?

Here is a budget question, which has probably been dealt with in the last 9 pages, but I'm lazy, so here is the story:

A while ago, I bought a crashed SRT4 Neon based on pictures, and it can be tough to properly assess a car that way. I got it home, and decided the body was too far bent to fix economically, and even sadder, the impact had knocked the plate that holds the bobble mount right off the block, breaking the bosses off the block. Story gets happier when I hit Bucks pick'n'pull for a $125 GT Cruiser turbo motor with a hamfisted attempt at head removal that resulted in a broken cam cap. I take the PT shortblock, my original head, freshen, and bingo, I'm powered up again. (Throw in a 02 R/T, and the story is complete, but that's a tale for another time)

Anyway, the crux of the story is this- I have a damaged shortblock that won't work in the car its intended to go into, but would work in a first gen Neon as long as I don't want A/C. I also have a broken head, which I would fix to use myself but would not consider selling to a paying customer.

Would value of the motor be the cost of gaskets and new pistons, or would the "junk" parts hold value?

Value of the Neon motor is included in the Neon purchase (which was discounted due to the wreck).

Value of the Cruiser motor is $125 plus gaskets and parts.

Recoup value of the leftover parts is whatever you can sell them for. Scrap metal, used short block, or part it out piece by piece. Your call. Total recoup value cannot exceed $2007.50. Parts sold off Neon cannot exceed purchase price of Neon. Parts sold off the Cruiser motor cannot exceed $125.

Add purchase prices, then subtract recoup value.

I may have complicated the story a bit. These are leftovers. The SRT4/RT is on the road, and will not be used in the competition. The engine parts are leftovers, and I wonder if they are of scrap value...The shortblock of the cruiser motor is gone, leaving a broken head. The head of the SRT motor is gone, leaving a broken shortblock. Both can be repaired to challenge levels, but not to a readily saleable condition. The challenge car is not yet purchased.

SVreX wrote: Value of the Neon motor is included in the Neon purchase (which was discounted due to the wreck). Value of the Cruiser motor is $125 plus gaskets and parts. Recoup value of the leftover parts is whatever you can sell them for. Scrap metal, used short block, or part it out piece by piece. Your call. Total recoup value cannot exceed $1007.50. Parts sold off Neon cannot exceed purchase price of Neon. Parts sold off the Cruiser motor cannot exceed $125. Add purchase prices, then subtract recoup value.

In reply to MrJoshua:

Ooops. Yeah, your right.

Streetwiseguy wrote: I may have complicated the story a bit. These are leftovers. The SRT4/RT is on the road, and will not be used in the competition. The engine parts are leftovers, and I wonder if they are of scrap value...The shortblock of the cruiser motor is gone, leaving a broken head. The head of the SRT motor is gone, leaving a broken shortblock. Both can be repaired to challenge levels, but not to a readily saleable condition. The challenge car is not yet purchased.

Yeah, that's a little different.

So, the Neon purchase and the engine purchase have nothing to do with it, right?

You are essentially asking, "I've got this stuff laying around and want to build an engine from it, how do I price it?" Right?

That's what FMV is for.

Put a value on the parts, and offer a reasonable justification.

You could:

• Show Ebay sales

• Show junkyard prices on engines

• Use scrap weight

or my favorite option:

• Ask on the board for FMV.

Usually, several people will chime in and an FMV value will be pretty obvious.

scrap price for the block would be like $20 maybe if it weighed 200lbs the head would be like 8-12 cents a lb if aluminum.

I understand the rules pertaining to braking systems and the change allow "stock" brake parts such as rotors, calipers, pads, lines are all "free" in the budget as a safety measure (and a good one). For my particular car, so little of the car is stock, so please help me in determining what is budget and what is free for 2015.

Car - Triumph Spitfire body and frame with substantial modifications for a Ford 2.3 Turbocoupe engine and 5 speed. Complete rear suspension from a Mazda RX7 Turbo II. So for the rear suspension (not free), I was using stock rotors, calipers and pads, so these are all "free" as budget items, correct? For the front, the car is running Triumph GT6 spindles (not free), but the new rear brakes will easily overcome the front brakes, so I am upgrading in the following manner: Rotors - Peugeot 305 Stock rotors (vented, same diameter and dimensions as a GT6)- Not free? Calipers- Toyota Four Runner 4 piston calipers (common Triumph upgrade) - Not free? Toyota stock front pads - Free or not free?

Goal here being to create a more balanced braking system, not set a stopping system record. The last time my Spitfire ran at the drags, it was getting hard to stop at well over 100 with the crappy stock spitfire mini disks and drum TR7 brakes. I understand that performance pads, rotors, etc would be a budget item, but was not completely sure about stock components used from other cars that just happen to fit?

I think you need to count em (towards the budget)

Adding the rx7 rear suspension is an improvement and necessitated the non-stock (spitfire) brakes. The big key is if they were stock on the original car, not just stock to any car. All the front parts would definitely count as non-stock to the spitfire.

I was leaning toward agreeing with your logic, but I think bluej got it right.

You already admitted the car overpowered the stock brakes, and the reason for your swap was to make the (increased power) car safe and balanced (BECAUSE of the increase in power).

In reply to SVreX:

And that is the problem in a nutshell, I would use new parts for safety items such as brake rotors, calipers and pads if they are not a budget item. None of the described items make the car faster, or necessarily really help in autocross, but do make the car much safer on the drag strip. Spitfires have stock 50-60 HP tops, so any upgrade to the engine overcomes the stock marginal brakes. Yes, the car is faster, and yes the engine swap necessitated a different rear suspension (which brought along more powerful rear brakes), thus requiring something a little more stout for the front brakes. So if these are a budget item, it may force me to substitute used parts to save $$, which then negates the safety of the rule to allows stock brake parts to not be part of the budget. Not trying to play any rules games, but wanting the car to be as safe as possible.

Well, those are the kinds of compromises that need to happen in this game. If you don't hit the wall in some fashion and have to make a budget related compromise choice, I don't think you have done all you can do to win.

I would disagree about the autocross. More power + more stopping power to offset the power has got to equal faster autocross times.

I will let the GRM powers that be make the final ruling, but I think you have simply described the perfect storm of decisions that make the $20XX Challenge such a good event.

Is there another budget area you could cut in order to free up some funds to use for the brakes?

What used brake part is putting you over the budget? Can you use clean used pads? Maybe get some throw aways when someone upgrades? Can you turn an old set of rotors? Can you rebuild an old set of calipers?

While I am a fan of the budget exemption, I do not think cheap needs to equal unsafe. It will, however, take more time.

If you are "well over 100 mph" in the drags, you are one of the top contenders.

I don't think Andy or Pat are running stock brakes. You might just have to take the hit.

In reply to SVreX:

Since I am bringing back a past challenge car, I am playing the game of "taking off" one item at either the original purchase price or FMV. So not much budget available to move around. The rear suspension was easy, as Andy Nelson sold me a complete RX7 Turbo rear suspension and a second LSD for peanuts (where does he find this stuff), so I was able to remove all the costs for the previous rear suspension items and it made this swap pretty much a wash budget wise. But as you have said, adding this (and the larger rear brakes) then means other areas of the car need to be upgraded. The car has always had the turbo engine at the previous Challenge events, but it could not get the power to the ground with the TR7 solid rear axle. I found the GT6 parts cheap, to upgrade the front brakes, but rusty old Triumph calipers don't give me a great deal of confidence that I have upgraded the front brakes to match the rears. Locking up the rear brakes at the end of the drag strip, is not the best way to stop. So I was looking for cheap, stock brake components that upgrade the front brakes to better match the rear brakes.

dherr wrote: So I was looking for cheap, stock brake components that upgrade the front brakes to better match the rear brakes.

I get it, and I feel your pain (more than you know)

But you keep using the word "upgrade"...

...that's not stock.

In reply to SVreX:

Yes, I see your point as in that context, saying that Z06 carbon ceramic brake rotors are also "stock" (on a Z06). In my case, I am taking slightly larger 10" rotors that come off of a pedestrian car and using another pedestrian brake caliper (both bolt-ons) to build a more efficient braking system using non-high performance parts that are preferably new and not used stuff. Nothing here is expensive, high performance, or remotely sophisticated, just backyard engineering a front braking system that has a better chance of stopping my car without it swapping ends. FYI, the car runs mid 12's at around 102 but should be faster with a larger diameter tire that is now possible with the new rear suspension.

Lets see here, using jy parts prices: Calipers - ~15 per (30) Rotors - ~14 per (28)

Assume new cheap pads - (20)

That's ~ $80 if you do enough digging to find a combo that works and is in good shape. Heck, I've bought new rotors for ~20 per before, so even that's not too bad if you can find a combo. Can you find that much budget room?

Did the Vorshlag bellhousing rule go bubye?

In reply to bluej:

Yes, Junkyard is my alternative and likely route if we can't use new/rebuilt parts. Guess I have to wait on Tom or Rick for the official ruling on this.