This could be interesting (endurance content)

Anybody have any experience with american endurance racing? I didn't see anything in the search bar. I just read an article about it and it seems like a very cool alternative to lemons with a more serious take on the racing

I read the article too, though I'm curious how things are going to go when you have all different classes out there from very slow crapcan cars to very fast actual racecars. If you're in the former, you're gonna have to be in your mirrors constantly for fast-movers. The speed difference usually works out fine for pro drivers, but with a lot of inexperienced/amateurs out there I can see some very large wrecks when a slow car does something unexpected or doesn't see a fast mover coming up. I have a handful of races (probably about 30 hours of racing) under my belt in our Chump e30 and I don't think I'd be terribly comfortable out there with "unlimited" level cars. In theory you can have a bunch of slow civics or something out there racing wheel-to-wheel with Z06s and Evos and whatnot. I think it'll end up being a bitch-fest about "slow cars being in the way" and whatnot by the faster drivers in the higher-dollar cars. To say nothing of the first time some crapcan back-marker takes out a high-dollar racecar.

IDK, I prefer the Chumpcar setup where cars are all within a reasonably similar speed range. And Chump is pretty "serious" racing without all the LeMons goofiness.

After my first Chumpcar race at Sebring a few weeks ago, I'd say there's PLENTY of speed difference in Chumpcar. I was in an e30 325, and there were a few cars I had at least 20mph on, and I was FAR from the fastest car in a straight line.

racerfink wrote: After my first Chumpcar race at Sebring a few weeks ago, I'd say there's PLENTY of speed difference in Chumpcar. I was in an e30 325, and there were a few cars I had at least 20mph on, and I was FAR from the fastest car in a straight line.

True, though many of the straightline cars in Chump aren't as fast in the corners (e.g. we had the Labonte brothers driving a Crown Vic in Chump VIR this year. They killed most cars on teh straights, but I passed them several times in the corners in our ETA e30. We get pulled on the straights by most cars, being an ETA, but very few are blowing by us by more than 20-30mph.

But AER is going to be a whole other level of speed differential I'd venture to say. Guess we'll find out :)

You guys do know the gas pedal goes up and down right? Yes there is a speed differential, but hold your line and the faster cars/drivers will figure it out. It's an endurance race, a couple of seconds per lap is fine over the course of 12+ hours, especially as more and more teams fall out due to "HPDE Champions" and general mechanical mayhem.

I was 6, 8, and 23 secs a lap faster than the other three drivers in my car. There was a 914 that was a almost a full minute a lap slower than the fastest cars (2:40 vs 3:30).

I've only run LeMons, but I think all of these series have vast speed differences. Our LeMons team cars are slow, we're often the 90th fastest car out of 110. I've had some of the A class cars blast by me on the straight at least 20mph faster than I'm going...and my foot is to the floor. Yet when we don't have a mechanical failure or other issue, we'll finish 30th or something like that. Consistent and smooth laps = success. Yes, it requires a lot of mirror driving. And exactly as turboswede said, hold your line and let them find a way around you. If they're half decent, they'll have no problem finding their way around...and appreciate your being predictable. Having multiple classes of cars, in combination with a huge variance in driver skill and experience, creates huge speed differentials.

Oh, and I'll never understand the constant comments about LeMons racing not being serious. Having fun with each other and our cars off the track has zero to do with the racing on the track. Having a sense of humor sometimes is a good thing.

That 914 was running 2:20s, sometimes into the teens, depending on the driver. Yes it was slow, somewhat dangerous, had trouble early on, yet still beat 28 out of 94 faster cars at the end of the race. The main factors are driver skill and patience.

I know a few people here in Texas who have run races with them and have nothing but good things to say. I think the speed differential is one of the "charming" things about endurance racing anyway. Whether it's LeMans or AER, there are big closing speeds. That's part of the game of multi class racing.

That 914 was nowhere near 2:20's. My comment was about how much faster in a straight line some cars were over the 914, which could only hit 88mph top speed.

Is this one in addition to WRL?

fiesta54 wrote: Anybody have any experience with american endurance racing? I didn't see anything in the search bar. I just read an article about it and it seems like a very cool alternative to lemons with a more serious take on the racing

Yes. The first race event they did went pretty well. I had one of the main guys who organize it as a student at the BMW Club Racing school and he was spreading the word. I did not participate but several close friends did and said it was very well run and good value.

We have two cars queued up for the upcoming event at the Glen. One to race and one to rent. I, unfortunately, appear to be traveling for work so other guys are going to get some extra track time Rumor has it that names like _onahue and Po_st might be in that car so I am really trying to rearrange my travel so I can atleast hang out and rub elbows.

It is a run what you brung series - any tin top with a log book from NASA, PCA, BMW, SCCA, etc as well as Chump. Tires are 180 or greater. Speed differentials will be wide. There are cars that can do a 2.00 flat and cars that struggle to put down a 2.30 so there should be plenty of excitement in traffic. Plus... it's the Glen. It comes with a built-in aura of awesome. I'm not certain what you need for driver cred. but I imagine a competition license from one of the sanctioning bodies would be required.

driver cred = 5 chump/lemon races or license from any of the sanctioning bodies.

In reply to racerfink: yes it was cause I drove it 2:24 and the owner was in the teens, 88mph sounds right, but another half mile of straight away and I could've hit 98! Still we paid our money, passed tech, didnt get black flagged and beat 24 faster cars, it wasnt a drag race it was an endurance race.

One of the best laps the car had, and it's a 3:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlTXGqoECuM

irish44j wrote:

racerfink wrote: After my first Chumpcar race at Sebring a few weeks ago, I'd say there's PLENTY of speed difference in Chumpcar. I was in an e30 325, and there were a few cars I had at least 20mph on, and I was FAR from the fastest car in a straight line.

True, though many of the straightline cars in Chump aren't as fast in the corners (e.g. we had the Labonte brothers driving a Crown Vic in Chump VIR this year. They killed most cars on teh straights, but I passed them several times in the corners in our ETA e30. We get pulled on the straights by most cars, being an ETA, but very few are blowing by us by more than 20-30mph. But AER is going to be a whole other level of speed differential I'd venture to say. Guess we'll find out :)

If you haven't race the MR2 Bio car or the rusty squirrel cougar car in Chumpcar, they are by far the fastest in the turns (if they don't spin) and the straight away that I have seen in Chumpcar. Clean drivers as well.

Again, I've said nothing about the skill of the drivers. In fact, it's obvious the guy in that video knows what he's doing. But, back to my point... Look at the speed difference of the cars that get by him.

racerfink wrote: My comment was about how much faster in a straight line some cars were over the 914, which could only hit 88mph top speed.

And everyone stood in awe as it suddenly vanished, only to reappear in the 2012 race...

racerfink wrote: One of the best laps the car had, and it's a 3:14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlTXGqoECuM

Oops you are absolutely correct, please add one minute to my stated times. When I saw 2:40 I was thinking of one of my street cars.

More in-car video from the 914. There's still quite a few cars out running, despite being around 10 hours in. When I did the second stint for my team, it was two hours in, and the track was full of cars. Very hard to get into a rhythm with the congestion. At the 19:38 mark, that's me going by in the white BMW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvZQcH-7ook

Thats me driving the second time, trying not to get tagged out. That was my first time wheel to wheel, and although I have a 914 v8 the first time in a 914-4. My neck still hurts from checking the mirror, I kept reaching for the shifter thinking of my car when I still had 1500rpm to go! Slow as it was track time is always good time.

I've been racing since 1991. This was my first Chumpcar event though. I've done two previous 13hr races at VIR. I can still remember my very first driver's school, going down the backstretch the first time under green. My foot was shaking so bad, it nearly came off the accelerator. It had rained that morning, and I was on slicks in a GT4 car I had borrowed. The line was dry, but still wet most everywhere else, so it was fun passing people. Didn't take long for me to get hooked.

At my first race a few weeks later, I was the only GT4 car in the field, and there were 9 GT1's, and 11 ASR's. Anytime I wasn't shifting, I was pointing.

Any endurance race I have been involved with has always had significant speed differentials involved.

That's my friend that I crewed for in the Focus during an endurance race at Summit Point. For those familiar with the track, the trucks had just passed him (one on each side) coming thru turn 4.

I raced in the AER race at NJMP. There were 22 cars there, and all but 4 of them were BMWs. The Civic we were racing, which is an 89 Si hatch with a well sorted suspension and SOHC VTEC swap was by far the slowest car there. I have some serious concerns that they will be able to last any length of time, mainly as I didn't see much differentiation in the product they are selling, for a higher price than their competition. They are asking $1800-$1900 for a weekend, and while that includes testing day, it is still several hundred more than a comparable Lemons or Chump weekend with testing. The only reason we went is that we got a deep discount to do so. My general thought was that people might have just as well done a BMWCCA enduro, or a Chump race, as this was really not much different, at least not in a way significant enough for a big enough niche in the market.

The qualifying system actually worked out well, with no real sandbagging, everyone got a bit faster on race day, but not dramatically so, and not enough to change any classing, except for the one car that was legitimately broken in testing day.

The organizers, who seemed nice enough and were trying as well as they could, didn't seem to have really thought everything through, which I can understand as their first event. Hopefully that improves, as the level of organization would not work once/if the fields get bigger. Other issues will have to be worked out as the fields get bigger too: the quite interesting and good idea of barcodes on the cars and drivers had some serious technical difficulties and wasn't used on Sunday. Some of the teams who take themselves very seriously camped out down the entire length of the hot pits with all of their tools/fuel/etc, leaving very little room for those who didn't need to, so that will have to be changed if more cars show up.

There were a lot of people driving over the level of their talent and conditions, which were wet at times. I recall 5 cars that crashed significantly, 2 or 3 of them likely not repairable. Many others, were regularly putting 4 wheels off track and staying on the gas and not always entering safely. Having 20% of the field crash out in an event with only 13 cars per mile makes me think they need to be a little bit more aggressive in their flagging, or this will be a real issue in larger fields.

Overall, we didn't feel particularly welcome as our car just wasn't fast enough, and we aren't the kind to think we are "real race car drivers" who do things like swerve back and forth to worm up the tires (in an endurance race with a small field...like it really matters). We might go back, but only if it is a track we really really want to go to that nobody else runs, but that's if they even survive.

trigun7469 wrote:

irish44j wrote:

racerfink wrote: After my first Chumpcar race at Sebring a few weeks ago, I'd say there's PLENTY of speed difference in Chumpcar. I was in an e30 325, and there were a few cars I had at least 20mph on, and I was FAR from the fastest car in a straight line.

True, though many of the straightline cars in Chump aren't as fast in the corners (e.g. we had the Labonte brothers driving a Crown Vic in Chump VIR this year. They killed most cars on teh straights, but I passed them several times in the corners in our ETA e30. We get pulled on the straights by most cars, being an ETA, but very few are blowing by us by more than 20-30mph. But AER is going to be a whole other level of speed differential I'd venture to say. Guess we'll find out :)

If you haven't race the MR2 Bio car or the rusty squirrel cougar car in Chumpcar, they are by far the fastest in the turns (if they don't spin) and the straight away that I have seen in Chumpcar. Clean drivers as well.

Yeah, I've very familiar with both of them. They have both passed me many times at BeaveRun, VIR, and Summit, lol....that Cougar looks terrifying coming up fast behind with its sharp-tooth grille

we can take the Cougar in the turns (just for pride), but stand no chance in the straights. Bio (and the other Yellow MR2) can smoke us anywhere on the track - and we regularly finish top-20 (best 11th), so we're not a "slow" car. We actually led for 2 hours at Summit last year, and then held 3rd for 6 hours. Then our 4th driver put it in a wall....

granted, we were only holding that high because the high-power cars couldn't deal with the wet as well as we did. The drier it got, the closer the fast movers got...