Jeff wrote:These are cars. They're metal and plastic and rubber and really cool, but my god a quarter million?
saying something like that is like saying a cavalier should be the same price as a corvette. Both are 2 door cars made by Chevy, whats the difference?
value is in the eye of the bee-holder
edizzle89 wrote:Jeff wrote:saying something like that is like saying a cavalier should be the same price as a corvette. Both are 2 door cars made by Chevy, whats the difference? value is in the eye of the bee-holder
Why would someone pay $2-3 million for a Plymouth?
https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/CA0815-225244/0/1970-Plymouth-Hemi-Cuda-Convertible/Automatic/
It's just a Plymouth for crying out loud. And it's even an automatic. I guess this means I should be able to get $1 million for an old Neon. At least the Neon has a CD player!
Knurled wrote:edizzle89 wrote:Why would someone pay $2-3 million for a Plymouth? https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/CA0815-225244/0/1970-Plymouth-Hemi-Cuda-Convertible/Automatic/ It's just a Plymouth for crying out loud. And it's even an automatic. I guess this means I should be able to get $1 million for an old Neon. At least the Neon has a CD player!Jeff wrote:saying something like that is like saying a cavalier should be the same price as a corvette. Both are 2 door cars made by Chevy, whats the difference? value is in the eye of the bee-holder
A car is a car is a car, but at the end of the day if you can find a buyer who wants to buy your neon for $1 million or a fiat for $250k, then do it. The problem is finding that person since the buyer, more or less, sets the price point rather then the seller. People will pay for what they think its worth.
It's pointless to complain about this if noone is willing to have a serious conversation about the societal utility of allowing people to accumulate wealth beyond a certain line in the sand that has to be drawn. The western capitalist economies have tremendous problems that have to do with how governmental policy is coopted by the rich to rig the economy in their favor, and we now have decades of consistent patterns to draw upon showing how we might have just gone wrong a bit in allowing that. If anyone actually gives a E36 M3 about it, i recommend they spend the time they would have spent feinting an actual complaint on a car forum and then immediately pulling back from the actual issues it raises, and read an article by Noam Chomsky or Chris Hedges (or a whole BOOK!) instead.
I think the current price trend in the classic/enthusiasts car market is troubling and starts to limit participation. And yes this ties into larger social issues of wealth concentration and whether that's a good thing or not.
People can do with their money what they please. I just question the value judgment of paying that much for a car.
Jeff wrote: I think the current price trend in the classic/enthusiasts car market is troubling and starts to limit participation. And yes this ties into larger social issues of wealth concentration and whether that's a good thing or not. People can do with their money what they please. I just question the value judgment of paying that much for a car.
What would you say is a fair price for that car?
I know it flies in the face of current thinking, but I find it very hard to value a used/classic/non-new race car over $100,000. I don't know what this is worth, as others have said, it's worth what someone will pay.
My current income, obligations, and temperament makes it hard for me to spend more than $5K on a toy/fun car. If my income went up 10 fold, I'd be in the $50K range and I think this car would be of interest at that price. But these are all personal value judgments.
I certainly don't see any issues whatsoever if a person wants to buy a car with their money. I don't see anything wrong with people making as much money as they possibly can.
Just because I may want something I can't afford, certainly doesn't make me want to change the rules to allow me to do so. It makes me want to make more money.
I have seen worse uses of money
That car is for sale in the European market. Those Rally Abarths were LEGENDARY over there. That is probably one of the most recognizable livery/car combos of the era. The price isn't out of line to me.
Jumper K. Balls wrote: I have seen worse uses of money
I have that comic as a PDF. Anyone want a copy? I'll cut you a deal at 1 million, it's DRM-free too! 
The thing is, this car isn't famous. Its cool, but 99.9% of the people would have no idea where this car came from. I don't know its back story. If you told me the name of the person who drove it I bet I never heard of him. If you had a race car from an Andretti, or Petty, or the like, it would be a big deal to most people. To me this car is no more special than a ricer honda. The 55 chevy from Two Lane Blacktop sold a few years ago for like $175K (that number comes from memory, forgive me if not accurate), I loved that car, but outside our population of enthusiasts who has seen it? Not very many people. But at least this guy got a car out of the deal. I saw a show about a guy that spent thousands of dollars for autographed pictures of baseball players from the 1920's. All he had was old pictures. That was a lot worse of a deal.
EDIT: okay so it's famous. But that's Europe. What do they know, They liked Jerry Lewis and David hasselhoff.
gearheadmb wrote: The thing is, this car isn't famous. Its cool, but 99.9% of the people would have no idea where this car came from. I don't know its back story. If you told me the name of the person who drove it I bet I never heard of him. If you had a race car from an Andretti, or Petty, or the like, it would be a big deal to most people. To me this car is no more special than a ricer honda. The 55 chevy from Two Lane Blacktop sold a few years ago for like $175K (that number comes from memory, forgive me if not accurate), I loved that car, but outside our population of enthusiasts who has seen it? Not very many people. But at least this guy got a car out of the deal. I saw a show about a guy that spent thousands of dollars for autographed pictures of baseball players from the 1920's. All he had was old pictures. That was a lot worse of a deal.
To you, maybe, the car is not well known or worth much. As you said, it looks like a "ricer Honda"
In reality it is a homogulation special, built to allow Fiat to go rallying in the late 70s. As such, only 500 of the cars were produced to very exactly standards to match the race cars. Between that and with how few are probably not wrapped around trees, you have a very rare car that probably meant a lot to many people in Italy and other parts of Europe.
And trust me, the Abarths are very special cars. Not like the new abarth 500s, they had unique engines, suspensions, body modifications, and interiors to lower the weight, improve the performance, and make them race cars for the road that you could, with very little modification, take rallying.
Would you complain it if had been a Genuine Shelby Mustang or a Cobra? Trust me, it is just as special, if not more so. The Mustang and the Cobra were built to sell cars.. the 131 Abarth was designed to let Fiat go racing. It is a big difference
gearheadmb wrote: The thing is, this car isn't famous. Its cool, but 99.9% of the people would have no idea where this car came from. I don't know its back story. EDIT: okay so it's famous. But that's Europe. What do they know, They liked Jerry Lewis and David hasselhoff.
Those Rally 131 Abarths have graced the covers of thousands of books and magazines
I think we can agree that attempting to sell one of Richard Petty's old stock cars to a French or Italian market wouldn't be the best idea. Same with this Abarth in the USA. Yes there are a few here who "get it" but over there it is a real legend.
mad_machine wrote: In reality it is a homogulation special,
Actually according to the ad it isn't a homologation car, but an actual works factory racer. Even bigger deal.
NOHOME wrote: Have you never watched Barret Jerk-off? It only takes one stupid person with a hard-on and a check book. Stupid is being baked fresh every day. Why should this seller not at least try to cash in?
Interesting observation. I remember someone spilling some similar bs several years back at vintage Ferrari prices.....also with the newer gt40s. They got pretty quiet when the prices started going up though. It was hilarious when a guy on another forum quoted their posts year after year to rub salt into the wounds.
The concentration of wealth angle is interesting. A tremendous amount of the art and architecture that we enjoy has come about because of this.
Perhaps the automobile has finally been around long enough to be appreciated as an object of art, and with that a significant break from the 'value' of the car. You see it with other things like coins and guns and furniture and knives.
Jeff wrote: This crazy valuation is killing our hobby. Your berkeleying car, however cool it is, is not worth what you think.
Asking for a bazillion dollars isn't the same as actually getting a bazillion dollars. Only when they start selling for a bazillion dollars does it start making it hard to afford.
Here's my strategy. See what you think:
Four years ago, I test drove a '71 911 T on a lot. It had a widebody kit. It was a little rough around the edges, but it ran, drove and was a total blast. It was priced at a very affordable $6k. I chose not to buy it. Now that car's worth ~$35k. I kicked myself for years for not buying it.
Kicking myself for years wasn't fun.
The market's gonna to do it's thing. I can't control that. Bitching about the fact that I'm not ever going to own a Ferrari, a long hood 911 or a Mclaren P1 wont do me any good.
So, I focus on what I can afford: Miatas. E30s. A cheap race car.
Similarly, I'm not going to be on a date with a supermodel anytime... ever. Spending my time focusing on not getting a date with Gisele and how Berkleying unfair that is... that's the road to pain.
So... 60s Ferrari Californias, long hood 911s, Ferrari 488 GTBs, BAC Monos, Gisele, Beyonce, Megan Fox etc., etc... Yep, I know they all exist, But they're not on my radar. I'm not giving myself heart burn by not having them.
Relax guys.......just because someone paid an exorbitant amount at auction for a car, doesn't mean all interesting cars are going up in price. The classic car market has it's upturns, and it's downturns. There are still good deals to be had.....and money to be lost if you choose poorly.
We go to the auctions in Monterey every year, and some of the prices paid are astounding. However, I've never been at an auction where I didn't see at least one car that represented good value, or an outright "steal". Great deals are still out there.......you just don't see them on T.V. very often.
IMHO, the price of that Abarth is understandable. The reference to the Shelby GT-350 is spot-on. Them furriners like different stuff than we do.
Joe Gearin wrote: Relax guys.......just because someone paid an exorbitant amount at auction for a car, doesn't mean all interesting cars are going up in price. The classic car market has it's upturns, and it's downturns. There are still good deals to be had.....and money to be lost if you choose poorly. We go to the auctions in Monterey every year, and some of the prices paid are astounding. However, I've never been at an auction where I didn't see at least one car that represented good value, or an outright "steal". Great deals are still out there.......you just don't see them on T.V. very often. IMHO, the price of that Abarth is understandable. The reference to the Shelby GT-350 is spot-on. Them furriners like different stuff than we do.
But it's something i don't like and therefore nobody should like it
Kia_Racer wrote: In reply to Hungary Bill: You would have to change the airline to Aeroflot
Terrorflot or Aeroflop is my favorite version. I flew to Moscow in 2014 with them and when we landed the pilot said the weather and temp and all the typical crap in Russian and then instead of repeating it in English he just said: "Welcome to Russia. Good luck."
Back on topic, If I am paying that much for something with Alitalia all over it, it better be a Stratos.
This trend certainly is disturbing. Just last week I saw that a guy wanted five grand for his Fairmont wagon. Five grand! Insanity, I tell you. Of course, I have over twenty in mine, but I'm really good at double standards.
Seems like every year when the car auction season comes around, people complain about the high prices paid. I guess it's an annual tradition.
The best way to beat this and score a few bucks is to jump onto the bandwagon, buy a future collectible and enjoy it until it jumps in price.
I failed to step up when 930s were $20K every day, now they are closer to $80K, so I picked up a 996TT and now we wait..... and drive the blue beast.
That's my theory anyway
Vigo wrote: It's pointless to complain about this if noone is willing to have a serious conversation about the societal utility of allowing people to accumulate wealth beyond a certain line in the sand that has to be drawn. The western capitalist economies have tremendous problems that have to do with how governmental policy is coopted by the rich to rig the economy in their favor, and we now have decades of consistent patterns to draw upon showing how we might have just gone wrong a bit in allowing that. If anyone actually gives a E36 M3 about it, i recommend they spend the time they would have spent feinting an actual complaint on a car forum and then immediately pulling back from the actual issues it raises, and read an article by Noam Chomsky or Chris Hedges (or a whole BOOK!) instead.
On that note, half the world's wealth is now owned by 62 people:
https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2016-01-18/62-people-own-same-half-world-reveals-oxfam-davos-report
They could all fit into a double-decker bus and there would be 4 seats left over - nobody would have to stand.
Edit: And to give you an idea of how quickly this is accelerating, in 2010, it was 388 people. They would've needed most of the seats in a 747 to travel together.
If that Abarth has some real provenance (which is in doubt from the BAT article) then It's worth the money. If you question the vale of something like that then go and check out some of the restorations of rally cars that ///MAT have done and imagine the hours that have gone into them.
I was checking out their Group B Ferrari 308 build (FIA Certified historic re-creation) and saw something in one of the pics that indicated they were over 2,000 hours at mid build. For a top shop charging $100 an hour that's already $200K before the cost of the car, the parts etc. That's why these top line cars with history get restored, because there is value in it.
You'll need to log in to post.
