This old question again: 5 pt harness without roll bar/cage?

What is the consensus on the idea of a harness bar and 5 point harness with no rollover protection in a dedicated RallyCross car? No street use and no track use - maybe the occasional Autocross. The car in question is a 1998 Outback Sport.

I did some googling and see a bunch of discussion about how terrible of an idea it is with the exception of Autocross/RallyCross. I completely understand why it's a bad idea, and I completely understand the value of a roll cage vs. the cost of a helicopter ride and/or paralysis. With that in mind, I'd like to better understand the "OK for Autocross/RallyCross" thinking. 

My assumption is that it's as simple as slower speeds and much less likelihood of hitting something (wall) that would result in a high g stop. Are there other reasons why the idea gets a pass (from some) for AX/RX?

Motojunky said:

What is the consensus on the idea of a harness bar and 5 point harness with no rollover protection in a dedicated RallyCross car? No street use and no track use - maybe the occasional Autocross. The car in question is a 1998 Outback Sport.

I did some googling and see a bunch of discussion about how terrible of an idea it is with the exception of Autocross/RallyCross. I completely understand why it's a bad idea, and I completely understand the value of a roll cage vs. the cost of a helicopter ride and/or paralysis. With that in mind, I'd like to better understand the "OK for Autocross/RallyCross" thinking. 

My assumption is that it's as simple as slower speeds and much less likelihood of hitting something (wall) that would result in a high g stop. Are there other reasons why the idea gets a pass for AX/RX?

I've never heard of the exception for AX/RX... That seems like someone trying to justify a (IMHO) bad decision...

The only exception I can think of is those fancy shroth "designed to fail like a 3 pt" DOT legal ones.

WonkoTheSane said:

Motojunky said:

What is the consensus on the idea of a harness bar and 5 point harness with no rollover protection in a dedicated RallyCross car? No street use and no track use - maybe the occasional Autocross. The car in question is a 1998 Outback Sport.

I did some googling and see a bunch of discussion about how terrible of an idea it is with the exception of Autocross/RallyCross. I completely understand why it's a bad idea, and I completely understand the value of a roll cage vs. the cost of a helicopter ride and/or paralysis. With that in mind, I'd like to better understand the "OK for Autocross/RallyCross" thinking. 

My assumption is that it's as simple as slower speeds and much less likelihood of hitting something (wall) that would result in a high g stop. Are there other reasons why the idea gets a pass for AX/RX?

I've never heard of the exception for AX/RX... That seems like someone trying to justify a (IMHO) bad decision...

The only exception I can think of is those fancy shroth "designed to fail like a 3 pt" DOT legal ones.

Perhaps my wording wasn't clear. There's certainly no official exception. I'm reading threads where responses are along the lines of: "I'd do it for Autocross, but not on the track." I'm looking to better understand that line of thinking. 

Motojunky said:

Perhaps my wording wasn't clear. There's certainly no official exception. I'm reading threads where responses are along the lines of: "I'd do it for Autocross, but not on the track." 

No, you were perfectly clear.   I just really do mean that people saying it are probably doing so to justify their own bad behavior.  It seems like the chances of rolling over are higher at an AX or RX than nearly anywhere else to me?

For example, I drive my fully caged, former-spec-Miata to the track.   Is this a good idea?  No.

I drive it like it's a motorcycle and that every single person on the road is actively trying to kill me at all times.   I've put probably ~10k of street miles over the years doing this (and another 10k+ on track!). 

I still wouldn't recommend that someone should do it.  It's an especially horrible idea in anything that someone might daily drive.   You won't catch me saying it's a good idea to someone, but I will say that, like everything, it's a choice in how you use the tool.

It's pretty hard to roll a car at autocross and even if you do it's likely to be a fairly low speed rollover.  I've seen it happen, but it's either involved car-to-car contact (very rare, usually involving a course with a crossover and a starter who isn't paying attention), a tippy car on super sticky tires (which you can self-select out of to start with), or a badly designed course that goes too close to curbs or other similar obstacles.  Of all the places to use a harness without a roll bar, that's probably the most defensible.

Rallycross I don't have much (well, any) direct experience with, but running on dirt through fields/etc seems more likely to have a car "dig in" and flip.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I'd be interested to see data but my gut says a rollover is more likely in RX vs. AX. 

I wouldn't feel too bad about it for pure autocross or rallycross as long as the car has some semblance of structural rollover protection (ie not in an open top vehicle, which is actually an scca rule). I'd be more serious about pairing the harness with a proper seat.

Over the past thirty years, I've never seen a car roll at autocross, and only very rarely seen cars on two wheels briefly. I have seen a car roll at rallycross, and seen quite a few cars up on two wheels. Probably not a statistically-relevant sample size, but aomething about getting sideways on a soft and rutted surface...

I ran a five point without a rollbar in my youthful idiot phase, but wouldn't do it these days.

Not sure if this helps with your original question or not.

ae86andkp61 (Forum Supporter) said:

Over the past thirty years, I've never seen a car roll at autocross, and only very rarely seen cars on two wheels briefly. I have seen a car roll at rallycross, and seen quite a few cars up on two wheels. Probably not a statistically-relevant sample size, but aomething about getting sideways on a soft and rutted surface...

I ran a five point without a rollbar in my youthful idiot phase, but wouldn't do it these days.

Not sure if this helps with your original question or not.

Just about everyone I've asked who has been into RallyCross for some time has seen a rollover. I think I read somewhere that the SCCA RallyCross program averages 3 per year. That's not a lot at all, but it's not zero. Don't quote me on that - I haven't gone back to look for the source. 

I am well past my youthful idiot phase. I may still be in my mature idiot phase. 

Thank you for the input!

I had mostly already decided that a 5 point harness without rollover protection is not for me. I am/was fishing for someone who might make a compelling case to change my mind. I think that the odds of a roof-flattening rollover happening in RallyCross are extremely low, but not zero. My daughter races the car as well, so I'm not just thinking about my own well-being. I have been upside down in a small pickup rollover and the roof cave in would have been catastrophic if I were harnessed upright.

With all of that said, I think my circumstances/preferences provide three viable options.

1.) Do nothing and continue to race with stock seats and stock belts

2.) Stock seat and Schroth Rallye ASM four point harness

3.) Cage/Roll bar, proper seat, five point harnesses (HANS?)

For a couple of reasons, I don't think this is the car for the level of effort required for #3. My kidlet wants to stay in the stock class, which means stock seat. I'd like to be more secure in the seat. Those two points make #2 an attractive option. #1 is certainly the easiest! 

Well, the real roof flattening ones probably need higher speed. I personally wouldn't be comfortable in rallyX just because I'd think it way too easy to catch a rut and roll.

However the correct way of thinking about it is what is your net safety change, and is the risk of unacceptable outcomes. For example running into a fence/tirewall/lightpost tends to be a lot more common. If adding a harness makes you significantly safer in those events, its a win. In a rollover, a harness keeps you in place better and the main risk of roll overs is the occupant striking internal parts of the car or getting something out the window.

So you're really looking at roof crushing impacts, which admittedly are high on the list of bad outcomes. More modern cars have pretty strong roll over structures in general, RallyX and autoX have lower speeds unlikely to result in the airborne or multi-roll incidents that result in a flat roof. You just have to pick a risk profile you're okay with. Schroth used to have some research online that suggested that a 5pt fixed seat without a roll bar was a net safety benefit. Unfortunately its not publicly available anymore.

In short, I don't think its as simple as 5pts without a cage = bad unless you're talking tracks and especially w2w competition. I wouldn't say 'hey you should do it', but know the risks and benefits and make the right choice for you. Just as an example, I see a lot of people wearing harnesses at autox without a hans. Your big risk for internal decapitation starts at about a 40mph impact. However most autox impacts are going to be low speed and the risk of impact is generally low. I wouldn't go around telling everyone they are an idiot for doing it without a hans even though I'd 100% say that at a track day.

To do it right, it's a properly designed and installed rollbar/cage, with seats and harnesses.  Most of the bolt in "roll bars" really aren't all that much better than a harness bar, they just look more of the part and weigh a whole lot more.  So that then turns into a thing of well, now you need to have it welded in, so it'll actually do what it's supposed to do thing...

That's a particular issue on 911's, (and the GRM BMW, cough, cough) where almost all of the bolt in "roll bars" attach to the rear seat belt mounts, so 2 bolts, in shear, on either side.  That's no better than just a harness bar, but I certainly understand why people are reluctant to rip apart their expensive car and permanently weld a roll bar in...

Motojunky said:

Thank you for the input!

I had mostly already decided that a 5 point harness without rollover protection is not for me. I am/was fishing for someone who might make a compelling case to change my mind. I think that the odds of a roof-flattening rollover happening in RallyCross are extremely low, but not zero. My daughter races the car as well, so I'm not just thinking about my own well-being. I have been upside down in a small pickup rollover and the roof cave in would have been catastrophic if I were harnessed upright.

With all of that said, I think my circumstances/preferences provide three viable options.

1.) Do nothing and continue to race with stock seats and stock belts

2.) Stock seat and Schroth Rallye ASM four point harness

3.) Cage/Roll bar, proper seat, five point harnesses (HANS?)

For a couple of reasons, I don't think this is the car for the level of effort required for #3. My kidlet wants to stay in the stock class, which means stock seat. I'd like to be more secure in the seat. Those two points make #2 an attractive option. #1 is certainly the easiest! 

Seems like a fair assessment of the situation to me..  

#1 - Maybe one of those belt lock systems would help for cheap?  I remember those being fairly common in autocrossing..  I never got to try them, though. 

#2 wins for me on the safety vs. ease axis, even if it only comes in second on the cost axis :)

Generally speaking, I'm opposed to running a harness without a roll bar... Not to say I haven't done it before too.

The built-in locking mechanism in a 3-point belt can be used to hold you firmly into the seat, which provides plenty of longitudinal torso control. At this point, the problem becomes a lack of shoulder bolstering in most seats, which is what prevents lateral movement of the upper torso. A properly shaped (typically aftermarket) seat and 3-point belt would probably be the best 'no roll bar' compromise IMO.

The question is for me is not just about the likelihood of a rollover, but also the likelihood of that the rollover collapsing the roof. By 2016 all cars (<6k GVWR) went from requiring the roof to support 1.5x the cars weight to 3.0x the cars weight on each side of the car. Accordingly, I would at least feel 'better' with the prospect of rolling at low speeds and limited obstacles with a harness but no rollbar in a 2016 or newer non-convertible. However, that's also not tested with a helmet on, so driver clearance would play a factor here too.

The Schroth ASM is not designed to allow enough torso movement to avoid severe injury if the roof collapses. The intent is only to allow the body to twist in a way that prevents sliding out from under the lap belts (submarining) without requiring a crotch strap.

In the 7 years I organized Rally-X we had two cars roll; one on it's roof and one on it's side. During that time we also organized a stage rally and never had a rollover.

Do you want to roll the dice?

My answer is no, despite the odds being low.

If you just want to be more secure, it shouldn't be hard to add just a lap belt. No need for a full harness in that case.

I've seen four cars go over at autocross.

I appreciate the additional input. Some additional thoughts in no particular order. 

• The car is a E36 M3box 1998 Subaru. I don't know much of anything about the roof rollover resistance. My gut says that just about any rollover event I might see would be fairly gentle. 
• The goal is to stay in the stock class - at least for the short term. That is the co-driver's preference and she's one of my top two favorite kids. That rules out a good aftermarket seat. That's also a big driving force behind not rolling the dice. 
• IF I were going to go the bar/cage route, It'd be a good product rather than a cosmetic bolt in. At a glance, Rhodes Race Cars has some cost effective looking starting points. I haven't done any real research as this isn't my likely route. https://www.rhodesracecars.com/93-01-SUBARU-IMPREZA_c_5247.html If I were going to go that route, I'd start with a car that has a lot less rust. 
• "The Schroth ASM is not designed to allow enough torso movement to avoid severe injury if the roof collapses. The intent is only to allow the body to twist in a way that prevents sliding out from under the lap belts (submarining) without requiring a crotch strap." This is an important point. I plan to give Schroth a call to chat at some point, but if that is accurate, it changes my thinking.
• I have never tried simply scooting the seat back, locking the belt, and then pushing myself into the belt. I'm currently dailying a clone of my RallyX car, so I'll test that today. I'd feel foolish if that does the trick. That said, if I'm locked in that way "pre rollover," am I in the same place as a Schroth? It seems like I'd still have more room to move inboard with the single shoulder belt. 
• I don't mind spending money - I just don't want to "throw good money for bad" a.k.a this beater. 

This is word of mouth, but I knew a guy who rallycrossed and did movie stunts, and he was against harnesses in a "street car" aka no cage. He said if the car flipped you'd be crushed because the harness keeps you in place, and that street seat belts are designed so that your torso can move out of the way in a rollover.

We had a harness in our rallyx car when he told us that, and immediately took it out.

Think about it - standard seat belts are an acute angle basically, your torso has more movement so if the roof collapsed you have more possibility to conform with the car. Harnesses keep your torso and shoulders in place, so you can only go down.

also, like you said lots of people who rallyx have seen a rollover, but really your course safety stewards should be on top of monitoring the course and making adjustments to prevent it as much as possible...at the end of the day if you think your Colin McRae and throw the car into a corner too fast that's on you. 

When I had a revolving door of cheapo stock rwd rallycross cars, I used to put a cheap basic lap belt in them- something you can really tighten down, then wear the stock 3pt with that.  Keeps your butt in the seat, no new rollover roof crunch concerns.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

When I had a revolving door of cheapo stock rwd rallycross cars, I used to put a cheap basic lap belt in them- something you can really tighten down, then wear the stock 3pt with that.  Keeps your butt in the seat, no new rollover roof crunch concerns.

dps214 made the same suggestion and I missed it in my catch all response above. I'm calling it option 1.5 at this point.

This was my stepfather's brand new 1988 S10. I was going 45 mph when I was broadsided by a big old LTD wagon. The truck was lifted off of the ground in the hit, and then essentially put back down at 45 mph perpendicular to the direction of travel. We rolled several times. The passenger in the bed was the least injured, followed by the front seat passenger. I was driving and was really lucky for the contents of that gym bag (roller skates) wedged in the rear window opening and the fact that I could fall out of the way. It's a sobering thought to imagine being strapped fully upright. 

Motojunky said:

The goal is to stay in the stock class - at least for the short term. That is the co-driver's preference and she's one of my top two favorite kids. That rules out a good aftermarket seat. That's also a big driving force behind not rolling the dice.

In autox at least, stock/street class is more likely to see rollovers than the heavily modified ones because that's where you get the stickiest tires with the softest suspension, which is the combination that can lead to cars flipping as they build up energy in slaloms.

I'm opposed to a 5/6 point harness and helmet without a cage / HANS.  If you hit something solid you could have a basal spinal fracture from the weight of the helmet.  A three point allows your torso to absorb some of the impact in a twisting motion.

Motojunky said:

 

• I have never tried simply scooting the seat back, locking the belt, and then pushing myself into the belt. I'm currently dailying a clone of my RallyX car, so I'll test that today. I'd feel foolish if that does the trick.

Well, I feel a little foolish. I locked the belt in tight and slung myself around the best I could to test it. It's not as good as a harness, but it's definitely better than nothing. It took two seasons of RallyCross to try this. What a maroon.