Thought Exercise - E30 M3 Alternative

Geekspeed wrote: In reply to WhiteLX: Nice Merkur. I have thought about those a lot, however, I got the impression that they need a lot of work to be quick. I like the black, though. Is the front a Ford Sierra piece? I was also thinking that if I did one of those, I would have to figure out a way to cut out that extra c-pillar. I really like the Euro look with the big, continuous rear quarter glass.

It really depends on what you're looking for. How quick do you wanna be? The typical Merkur bolt-on mods will easily get you past OEM E30 M3 power levels... hell, just turning up the boost should get you there without any other mods. But simple stuff like the right ECU & big VAM, intercooler, 3" exhaust, and a manual boost controller to turn the boost up (and pull the knock sensor) and you can have a reliable and decently powerful XR. And ain't none of that stuff difficult, expensive, or hard on the car.

That said, a Merkur XR4TI is not a BMW E30 M3, and I"m not just talking looks and cache. The way they make power, they way they drive, the way the feel, etc., is all different. I personally love the way my XR is, but it's not as taut and "exhilarating" as the M3's I've ridden in, if that kinda thing important to you.

BTW, just to pimp the XR more, here's mine:

steronz wrote: Just to reiterate the answer already given -- if you absolutely, positively need to be faster than an e30 m3 with 4 seats (or even 4 doors, if you choose) for less than 5 grand, the answer is 94-01 GS-R. I'd even suggest that any number of Hondas from the same era could come close, such as RS Integras, 4th and 5th gen Civic Sis, certain Preludes, or even their non-Honda equivalents - B13 SE-R, for instance. I'd also speculate that SRT-4 Neons are getting close to that price point, although I haven't checked. Regular Neon ACR possibly? Of course, you can insist it be European and/or RWD and let the kids in Hondas have all the fun.

I agree with this most of this answer but i'd leave the non-vtec integras, and add in SVT focus or a lightly modded duratec focus.

I can beleive that the XR does not have the razor precision of the M3.. not many cars short of a Lotus or Porsche do. Still does not stop the XR from being one of my favourite cars

Javelin wrote:

Travis_K wrote: ...I put about $10,000 into mine, then sold it for $900...

Yeah, the parts for them are very expensive, but as complete cars that are worth approximately 1/3 the value of a camry in similar condition. I did put about 45k miles on it, so i guess it was no worse than new car depreciation. I dont think i would buy another one though.

lnlds wrote: I agree with this most of this answer but i'd leave the non-vtec integras, and add in SVT focus or a lightly modded duratec focus.

At the risk of flames and fanboi status, if you don't mind FWD, the SVT Focus is very much E30 M3-ish. Nimble, responsive, free-revving, HP/weight about the same, etc.

Or an Integra with a S/C? Great suspension, much better torque with the S/C, and cheap parts.

But if FWD isn't an option, with a few mild mods the E30 325is is close enough to the M3.

Or how about a 944s?

I was just going to suggest the Focus SVT. The resale is pretty bad on them, which makes them great for buyers. I've had mine for about six year now, and it has treated me well. It can fit four adults in the three door. The sitting position is a bit high, but it's a nice car for what you pay.

There are two different trim levels, the standard, which I have, and the European package, which has nice heated Recaro seats, nicer wheels (In my opinion), and traction control, which I have never found myself to need. The paint seems pretty thin, but stuff like that has never worried me.

There is another thread going on the Ford Contour SVT. It would fit the OPs criteria pretty well. Revvy 2.5 V6, 190HP, 3100ish pounds.

In reply to Vigo:

What OEM MPI intake? I was under the impression that you had to fab one.... Spill it!!!

In reply to ST_ZX2:

What about the oil starvation issue on the Contour SVT? I believe those are notorious, correct?

Geekspeed wrote: In reply to WhiteLX: Nice Merkur. I have thought about those a lot, however, I got the impression that they need a lot of work to be quick. I like the black, though. Is the front a Ford Sierra piece? I was also thinking that if I did one of those, I would have to figure out a way to cut out that extra c-pillar. I really like the Euro look with the big, continuous rear quarter glass.

Mine has a lot of work done. Still working on the tune, but it made 286rwhp at the dyno last time.

exhaust, intercooler, cone filter and increased boost should get you around 250rwhp. I've done considerably more as i am working towards 350-400rwhp (still need a better turbo and intercooler and maybe better engine managerment and e85).

The stock suspension is really soft.

The front bumper, grill, and headlights on my car are Cosworth Sierra RS pieces. I would like to remove the c-pillar as well, btu I want to do it the right way with the quarter panels and glass from europe.

In reply to WhiteLX:

I think 250hp would be plenty for my purposes. I want a quick, durable car and I want to learn better racecraft before I go all crazy with power levels.

What did you do for the rear brakes? Did you keep the T9 and stock diff?

Geekspeed wrote: I think 250hp would be plenty for my purposes. I want a quick, durable car and I want to learn better racecraft before I go all crazy with power levels.

I think most here would agree that if learning to drive is your goal, you need a momentum car. More like a standard E30 325i or 318i, not an M3 or a turbocharged car. Horsepower covers up the driving errors..............and forced induction usually hurts reliability/durability.

Think Spec E30, 944 Cup, Spec Miata or Spec Focus if you are on the west coast.

Geekspeed wrote: What did you do for the rear brakes? Did you keep the T9 and stock diff?

I have TurboCoupe vented discs in the back, remove the proportioning check ball from the valve (2 minute job) and voila, huge brake upgrade over the drums.

I have a TurboCoupe T5, bolts right up, shifter with 2" of stock T9, 460Machine makes an adapter for a 1 piece driveshaft (can't remember which car it came off of, want to say 28 spline sticks out in my head), and blam, bolt on affair. Total cost to convert to a T5 for us was $500, including a used T5, the adapter, and drivershaft (reused the clutch/flywheel).

SVTF wrote:

Geekspeed wrote: I think 250hp would be plenty for my purposes. I want a quick, durable car and I want to learn better racecraft before I go all crazy with power levels.

I think most here would agree that if learning to drive is your goal, you need a momentum car. More like a standard E30 325i or 318i, not an M3 or a turbocharged car. Horsepower covers up the driving errors..............and forced induction usually hurts reliability/durability. Think Spec E30, 944 Cup, Spec Miata or Spec Focus if you are on the west coast.

I agree with this post, since tinkering/engineering/megasquirt/forced induction fun was our goal at first we built our car backwards. That being said, a stock Merkur with koni yellows all around, brake upgrade, larger wheels/tires, and some camber adjust-ability added in will be great, but you can do that with a stock e30/944/miata...

Remember than for the OP, a merkur would have to keep the stock intake piping, stock exhaust until after the cat, stock turbo, etc to be street legal. Not having the option of an intercooler makes making big power with a turbo car a lot more difficult.

MX6?

Geekspeed wrote: In reply to WhiteLX: I think 250hp would be plenty for my purposes. I want a quick, durable car and I want to learn better racecraft before I go all crazy with power levels. What did you do for the rear brakes? Did you keep the T9 and stock diff?

I just finished installing 87-88 T-bird turbocoupe brakes in the rear and I am trying to find time to install the 300mm SVT Focus rotors and Mustang GT 2-piston PBR calipers up front.

The T9 was swapped out for a T5 from a junkyard 2.3L Mustang, but it is making a lot of noise so i am going to be swapping in the T5z that used to be in Mustang. The 5th gear ratio in the T5z is a bit steep for the 2.3L, but with the 4.30 geared supra diff I am installing, it shouldn't be too bad (only 100 rpm less in 5th than I am now for a given speed). If the drop between 4th and 5th doesn't work out, I'll swap the rear gears for 3.73s and swap the 5th gear ratio for a .78 (from a .63).

Before the cosworth bumper, grill, and heavy TSW wheels, it weighed in at 2750lbs and the only thing removed was the A/C compressor and condenser. Thats with a heavy electric aftermarket sunroof as well.

Travis_K wrote: Remember than for the OP, a merkur would have to keep the stock intake piping, stock exhaust until after the cat, stock turbo, etc to be street legal. Not having the option of an intercooler makes making big power with a turbo car a lot more difficult.

The Rapido intercooler is CARB legal. Stock turbo is fine to 250rwhp and if you use an adjustable wastegate actuator instead of a boost controller, no one will be the wiser come smog time.

A cone filter isn't legal either, but a very easy swap some smog time.

I managed to get my 3" downpipe through smog. This year is going to be a bit more difficult considering I don't have the rapido intercooler anymore and I am running 55lb injectors.

Travis_K wrote: Remember than for the OP, a merkur would have to keep the stock intake piping, stock exhaust until after the cat, stock turbo, etc to be street legal. Not having the option of an intercooler makes making big power with a turbo car a lot more difficult.

that maybe so.. but if done in a stock appearing way.. the CHP is not likely to notice if they decided to do a street side smog check (how many people actually know how the merkur's intake even looks like anymore?) but would have to be changed back to stock for the real smog check

I've been considering getting the intake pipe and charge piping powdercoated wrinkle black to appear more OEM looking. Maybe order up a Cosworth Sierra airbox. I install the timing belt cover come smog time. Not seen is the Ford part number and logo on the turbo inlet pipe The pipe is cut down from a Powerstroke 6.0 intercooler pipe.

In reply to WhiteLX:

Sorry, that engine bay is too clean. You are obviously car obsessed and up to environmentally damaging shenanigans there...

Granted, CARB has no issue with people who put 26" wheels on their Escalade so that it is even MORE of gas-hogging pig, but I digress....

I can't think of a good reason to ever live in California.

Geekspeed wrote: In reply to WhiteLX: Sorry, that engine bay is too clean. You are obviously car obsessed and up to environmentally damaging shenanigans there... Granted, CARB has no issue with people who put 26" wheels on their Escalade so that it is even MORE of gas-hogging pig, but I digress....

I'd have no issue with having to pass a reasonable tailpipe smog test. What pisses me off is the visual "test" BS we have to go through and CARB tightening the emissions output standards from what the cars were originally designed to meet.

I never understood the visual either.. or the fact that all the stock parts have to be there... As long as what comes out the tailpipe meets standards.. who cars?

It sucks for people with cars like the early BMW 6ers that have to have less efficent "thermal reactors" rather than proper cats.. and no, you can't retro fit cats.. you have to have the head cracking, exhaust constricting, and fuel usage increasing reactors.. even though cats would be cleaner

AlfaBB Milano Verde For Sale

This is the best alternative you are going to find for an E30 M3 (as a 4-time E30 owner including an M3 for a dozen years and a 2-time Alfa owner). It's just been price dropped to right over your $5K figure (I have no association with the seller). It's also the higher performance 3.0 liter Verde model that typically sells for more in this condition.

As added bonuses over the M3 you get 4-doors, the low-rpm torque of a great V6, and the best exhaust note you'll find short of a true Italian exotic (not to say the M3 doesn't sound and feel great as it goes over 5K rpms). I can confirm what has been said by others that as a daily driver the M3 isn't the best choice because it is an engine that needs to be worked to be enjoyed--hence a big part of why my daily driver is now an E30 318is (after a dozen years the boy-racer M3 look also starts to wear thin). The Milano Verde engine in contrast is sweet on the street as well as the track.