Top 25 Drivers of All-Time?

aussiesmg wrote: Greed on the track is called competitiveness. If you aren't out to win at all costs you will NEVER be at the top. Not sure I like what that brings at in people at all times but it is a fact when 30 Alfa males are out to prove they are the best. Nascar is about the TV ratings, not about the racing. Note this is the organisation and I would drive for them too, so much freaking money on offer

Greed implies (to me) a total lack of ethics - thus an undesirable trait. Personal gain at the pain of others is and should never be acceptable on a racetrack or anywhere.

Hence - I like to dodge trees and I hillclimb! I'll crash myself off the road - thank you very much! And I'll take a guardrail and side of shrubbery with a smattering of grass.

I would drive for a NASCAR team too - if given the chance - even if it paid the same as I make now - just for the seat time.

Rusty_Rabbit84 wrote: I have to formally disagree with ESPN on their list of "The 25 Greatest Drivers of All Time". You cannot tell me, for example, #10 - Jeff Gordon is better than #24 - Nigel Mansell. Then there is #4 - Michael Scumacher. He is worse than Dale Earnhardt??? This thread should get some activity... http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/columns/story?columnist=blount_terry&id=3400774

Ugh. I'll wait for Autosport's listing.

I haven't read the list yet but I get really tired of the notion that NASCAR drivers can't be any good compared to drivers from (insert your favorite series here). Yes, NASCAR is run poorly and the debris cautions make me facepalm but anyone who doesn't think that Tony Stewart is a great driver is nuts. He's won at absolutely everything he's ever tried, but I guess until he beats Schumacher by 4 laps he and all his buddies just don't rate. NASCAR drivers shouldn't dominate this list, but to omit them would be just as foolish.

I just wish we still had a true IROC series so we could find out just how good some of these guys are relative to each other.

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Rusty_Rabbit84 wrote: I have to formally disagree with ESPN on their list of "The 25 Greatest Drivers of All Time". You cannot tell me, for example, #10 - Jeff Gordon is better than #24 - Nigel Mansell. Then there is #4 - Michael Scumacher. He is worse than Dale Earnhardt??? This thread should get some activity... http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/columns/story?columnist=blount_terry&id=3400774

Ugh. I'll wait for Autosport's listing.

ya, it will be a completely different list, FTW!!

Will wrote: I haven't read the list yet but I get really tired of the notion that NASCAR drivers can't be any good compared to drivers from (insert your favorite series here). Yes, NASCAR is run poorly and the debris cautions make me facepalm but anyone who doesn't think that Tony Stewart is a great driver is nuts. He's won at absolutely everything he's ever tried, but I guess until he beats Schumacher by 4 laps he and all his buddies just don't rate. NASCAR drivers shouldn't dominate this list, but to omit them would be just as foolish. I just wish we still had a true IROC series so we could find out just how good some of these guys are relative to each other.

It is not the Nascar drivers inclusion as much as the numbers of these drivers. Are you saying that out of the thousands of professional series in hundreds of countries, about 20% or more (didn't study the exact number) of the world's best are Nascar drivers, come on.

I will go out on a limb and state (IMHO) that 23 of the worlds best drivers have either driven in Formula One or The World Rally Championship at some time in their careers.

If I had to pick a current Nascar driver it would be Tony, but to rate him in the top 25 of ALL TIME seems a bit presumptive

By my count 13 of 25 are American -- no wonder he didn't have room for Gilles Villeneuve

Not to be disrespectful but in the spirit of this thread and my posts, how many Americans have won the Formula One or World Rally Championships yet 13 are listed in this best ever 25

aussiesmg wrote: Not to be disrespectful but in the spirit of this thread and my posts, how many Americans have won the Formula One or World Rally Championships yet 13 are listed in this best ever 25

No disrespect taken. However, my problem with this particular argument is as follows. Very few American drivers choose to pursue a driving career that leads to F1, just as very few of our best athletes choose to pursue a career in soccer instead of american football, basketball or baseball. So because our best athletes don't go to soccer, you can't really say US athletes as a whole are inferior because as a nation we're bad at soccer. In the last 15-20 years media exposure and opportunity for huge salaries have pushed many of the best American drivers toward NASCAR, and NASCAR has even siphoned some pretty talented drivers who have established themselves in other series (Sam Hornish comes to mind).

Obviously the list will be biased toward the US because it's put together by an American media entity. And I'm not saying that any certain number of drivers on this list must be American. But, and perhaps this is a uniquely American viewpoint, I don't automatically assume that an F1 champ is a better driver than someone who chose never to participate in that series. Foyt, for instance, never raced in F1, but he won the Indy 500, Le Mans 24, Daytona 24, Daytona 500 and plenty more. As far as I'm concerned that's more impressive than Michael Schumacher's multiple F1 championships.

OK but are you saying 13 out of 25 is even close to parity? Are many of these drivers even known outside the US. I could name 25 outstanding drivers from Australia but are they in the best 25 ever?

You are arguing from a US standpoint here, go outside the box and look at it from a world standpoint. The best of the best race in F1 and WRC, if the US drivers (generally) choose not to go against the best that is not a basis to ignore the other classes and countries.

If a driver goes out and races against the best from multiple countries he has to be rated higher than a driver who races against the best from one country.

I am not a Schumacher fan as stated several times but how can you state that a guy who absolutely dominated the WORLD's best racing class for a decade and won 7 WORLD Championships can be anything but the all time number one driver. No disrespect to Foyt, Andretti or a number of other world class drivers from the US, but winning a race is a huge achievement but winning the WORLD Championship, even one time, means so much more.

To be the best in the world you have to race against the world

It would have made more sense to have lists for each series. This is just guaranteed to make the Car Snobs angry.

Aussie, I guess we're just using different criteria to define greatness. I understand your argument for putting Schumacher at the top, even if you're not a huge fan of him, but I'd keep Foyt on top because he was so versatile. He could beat the best in Indy cars one week, then hop in totally different vehicle and beat the best drivers who drove those cars week in and week out.

There are some great drivers in NASCAR, especially the ones with dirt track experience. But you don't see their skills until they almost wreck or do some of the most unique doughnuts you ever saw in a victory celebration.

I guess my problem is the 25 limit, if they were saying the top 250 I am sure several Nascar drivers would make it, but 25....These are the very pinnacle over the past 100 years in the world, not the best in the US over the past 15 years.

one thought to keep in mind about NASCAR drivers not being up to snuff with the F1 guys.... remember the car swap thing with JPM and Jeff Gordon..?

first time ever in a F1 car and he turned laps at Indy that were fast enough to have qualified for that yrs US Grand Prix.... JPM was very impressed..

Jeff G can drive the wheels off a car...unfortunately he chose a crappy car to drive...

I admit that NASCAR is over-represented on this list. I just objected to the idea that it shouldn't be represented at all.

I would like to know what criteria ESPN used for this survey.

Did the drivers need to have raced on US soil at one time in their career? Were the decisions based on most media coverage?

What about the drivers that had true God given talent but never had the dream or the means to get out of the local scene but could drive inferior cars and win against bad drivers in better machines?

In one of his books - Burt Levy mentioned a compression of talent at the top. There are some really GREAT drivers that never even had the chance due to lack of luck or drive.

I think this list is a bit of a futile endeavor.

Boris hasn't made it because he doesn't look pretty. Race car drivers look more alike than a brigade of Marines. Boris just don't. I wonder if he shaved that glorious mane (the horror!!) if he wouldn't be taken more seriously and enjoy more professional success.

Will wrote: I haven't read the list yet but I get really tired of the notion that NASCAR drivers can't be any good compared to drivers from (insert your favorite series here). Yes, NASCAR is run poorly and the debris cautions make me facepalm but anyone who doesn't think that Tony Stewart is a great driver is nuts. He's won at absolutely everything he's ever tried, but I guess until he beats Schumacher by 4 laps he and all his buddies just don't rate. NASCAR drivers shouldn't dominate this list, but to omit them would be just as foolish. I just wish we still had a true IROC series so we could find out just how good some of these guys are relative to each other.

Will, you've got a point about the almost automatic disrespect shown the NASCAR guys..but that could be said about any nation's various forms of national championships. Was Peter Brock or Allan Moffat (Australian Touring cars) on the list? How about Tsuchiya Keiichi (JGTC, and the "godfather" of the modern "drift" movement)?

And I agree about the IROC. For my money, I'd like to see `em in Formula Fords on a natural road course, a short oval, a street circuit, and a super speedway. Spa/Milwaukee/Monaco/Daytona would do it for me..

Hmm... I might have thought a WRC guy or two would be on the list. At least Loeb for craps sake. Then theres that guy thats won LeMans a few times, Kristensen... might have at least gotten an honorable mention. Typical pathetic, popularist view. Lists like this should only be read after consuming copious quantities of the high life.