spandak
spandak New Reader
9/5/15 6:59 p.m.

I don't own the car or the trailer yet so this is more of a research/thought experiment question.

The car in question is a Mazdaspeed 3. The trailer would be a small camping trailer like the DIY ones based on Harbor Freight frames. I see that a hitch for the 3 is available and good for 2000lb. I imagine that would be sufficient for any trailer of that size. My question is more focused on the legal aspects. Ive seen smaller cars tow more but thats mostly a phenomenon in Europe. US spec vehicles have lower tow ratings if they have any at all. My research into the speed says that Mazda does not give a tow rating. So would towing be legal or just not recommended? Could my insurance company deny coverage if there is an accident due to the trailer?

EvanR
EvanR Dork
9/5/15 7:37 p.m.

Speaking as someone who has towed a 500lb. camping trailer with a 1g Scion xB, I feel qualified to answer this.

Overseas, manufacturers give tow ratings to cars, when US versions do not have tow ratings. Why?

Other countries have VERY stringent towing regulations. Maximum speeds are 80 km/h. Tongue weights are lower, 5% of total trailer weight vs. 10-15% in the US.

By using a lower tongue weight percentage, smaller cars can tow better. HOWEVER, with a tongue loaded that lightly, the trailer will begin to wag the dog at speeds over 80 km/h.

Here in the US, people expect to drive a vehicle with a trailer at regular highway speeds of 70 mph or more. That's why manufacturers won't give tow ratings.

Having said that, sure you can tow with a MazdaSpeed3. But only if you do it sensibly. Don't expect to tow down the interstate at 80mph.

In no state will law enforcement pull you over for doing something the manufacturer doesn't recommend - that's not their job.

As for your insurance company, I wouldn't worry. If you tow sensibly and responsibly, they'll never know because you won't be in an accident.

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose Dork
9/5/15 7:43 p.m.

Evan nailed it, be sensible and you'll be fine.
Reminds me of the 83 starlet I owned for a few years, which a previous owner had equipped with a hitch.

tomtomgt356
tomtomgt356 New Reader
9/5/15 8:02 p.m.

sarcasm

WARNING!!! IF YOU USE ANYTHING LESS THAN A DUALLY DIESEL TRUCK TO TOW ANYTHING INCLUDING A BIKE RACK YOUR TRANSMISSION WILL EXPLODE SENDING YOU CAREENING INTO A SCHOOLBUS FULL OF CHILDREN DRIVEN BY A NUN KILLING EVERYONE WITHIN A FIVE MILE RADIUS!!!!

/sarcasm

Evan hit it on the head. The engineers calculate a tow rating that the car is capable of and then the lawyers cut that back to match the amount of risk the company is willing to take. With the lack of driver training we have here I'm surprised towing hasn't been outlawed "for the children".

Nathan JansenvanDoorn
Nathan JansenvanDoorn Dork
9/5/15 8:18 p.m.

No one has answered his question: can insurance deny coverage in the event of an accident. "Don't have an accident" is a ridiculous non-answer.

sergio
sergio Reader
9/5/15 8:25 p.m.

Seems like a call to the insurance company will answer that question. A mazdaspeed3 will have no problem towing a HF trailer. It has the power and brakes to do it.

Wally
Wally MegaDork
9/5/15 8:30 p.m.

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn:

I've never seen insurance deny a claim against someone. Your liability coverage covers other people against your stupidity, careless and bad luck. It may not cover your collision damage to your own car but working in a body shop I've seen all kinds of damage covered.

KyAllroad
KyAllroad SuperDork
9/5/15 8:38 p.m.

Often manufacturers don't bother with the certification process on there specialty/low volume cars. They sell many more regular 3s than Speed 3s so why spend the money and time for such a small percentage of their fleet.

I have the same issue with my Passat. The 4 banger FWD sedan is rated for 2,000 lbs. and they sold 10X as many of them as the VR6 models. And of the VR6 models only one in ten was a wagon. So although the VR6 4motion wagon is rated to tow 4,500 lbs in Europe and it shares a lot of mechanical goodies with the Porche Cayenne (rated to tow 7,000 lbs) here in the states it has an official rating of zero lbs.

As to the question of your insurance coverage. You really should call them and get it verified (in writing) that you'd be covered.

T.J.
T.J. UltimaDork
9/5/15 8:50 p.m.

Evan, thanks for your response. That makes the most sense of any explanations I have heard.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
9/5/15 8:59 p.m.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: No one has answered his question: can insurance deny coverage in the event of an accident. "Don't have an accident" is a ridiculous non-answer.

Aside from "call your insurance agent", we are not insurance agents, so we're not qualified to answer this.

My best guess is that just because your car's manufacturer recommends against towing does NOT make it illegal to tow. Since you're not doing anything illegal, why would your insurance deny you a claim?

spandak
spandak New Reader
9/5/15 10:50 p.m.

Cool, thanks everyone. It seemed a little more sketchy in my mind so this was good to hear. I like the idea of being able to tow a small camping trailer various places and its something Im seriously looking into. Being able to tow it with a vehicle that I will actually enjoy driving makes it even better.

Sonic
Sonic SuperDork
9/5/15 10:55 p.m.
EvanR wrote:
Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: No one has answered his question: can insurance deny coverage in the event of an accident. "Don't have an accident" is a ridiculous non-answer.
Aside from "call your insurance agent", we are not insurance agents, so we're not qualified to answer this. My *best guess* is that just because your car's manufacturer recommends against towing does NOT make it illegal to tow. Since you're not doing anything illegal, why would your insurance deny you a claim?

I work for an insurance company and spend plenty of time reading policies. I have never, ever, seen anything that would even come close to denying our insured coverage for towing more than the rated capacity. Ever.

Not sure where that rumor started, but noting in any policy I have ever read comes close. In fact, if it weren't for stupidity on the part of the the general public, I probably would not have a job. The whole point of the liability coverage on an insurance policy is to cover negligence, which towing more than rated capacity certainly counts as part of.

Read your policy, but I can almost guarantee you that this has nothing to do with it.

neon4891
neon4891 MegaDork
9/5/15 11:43 p.m.

Related Q. Honda lists '08 civic at 1500#, the '09 was reduced to 1000#(mid gen refresh, only suspension change was rear camber). Hitch company lists 2000#(up to, consult manufacturer). In the camper world, 1000# will be a tear drop. 1500# will be an Aliner or a small scamp. 2000# will be a large scamp or an older small Trail Manor.

Not that I am in a position to buy a camper at this point, but I guess I'm looking to find out if an 1174# Aliner scout will be fine behind my car.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
9/6/15 1:11 a.m.

In reply to neon4891:

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend towing much over 1000 lb. with a 4 cylinder unibody car. If you keep your tongue weight at the recommended 10-15%, you're only adding a little bit to your suspension. My concern is with brakes. A Civic probably weighs 2500 lb. and you probably have a 1000lb carrying capacity. Add another 1000+ lb of trailer, and you start asking a LOT of your brakes.

KyAllroad
KyAllroad SuperDork
9/6/15 1:25 a.m.

Pfft, anything modern should be fine towing 2,000 lbs. brakes these days are more than capable of stoping a lot more weight than just the car they are bolted too.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
9/6/15 1:44 a.m.
KyAllroad wrote: Pfft, anything modern should be fine towing 2,000 lbs. brakes these days are more than capable of stoping a lot more weight than just the car they are bolted too.

Curt makes a trailer hitch rated for 2,000 lbs that fits the smart ForTwo.

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it.

Sadly, common sense isn't so common anymore.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic UltimaDork
9/6/15 1:49 a.m.

In reply to EvanR:

That reminds me of the other thing the drives the high euro tow ratings, most of what we would consider smaller trailers have brakes. All of those small car specs assume trailer brakes and sometimes a much lower unbraked rating is also given.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Dork
9/6/15 5:33 a.m.

FWIW- I actually called and asked my insurance company about this a while back, with a specific car in mind. The latest GTO has no tow rating here but that chassis is rated for 3500lbs in other markets. The answer I got was that towing anything would not mean they would deny my claims, but it WOULD be grounds for making me the "at fault" party in just about any accident. Take that info for what you paid for it, but it kept me from buying the car

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
9/6/15 6:17 a.m.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: No one has answered his question: can insurance deny coverage in the event of an accident. "Don't have an accident" is a ridiculous non-answer.

I've towed a HF tire trailer for yrs with my CRX (smaller than your 3) … and I've done so at speeds exceeding 70mph quite often … (I do have a bit more tongue weight than the European standard .. though not all that much) …never had any tail wagging the dog

as for my ins. my agent has told me that the trailer is covered because of my auto policy … (that's pretty much any trailer I could pull with my car) .. not to be confused with a "real" trailer

so if you're worried, ask your agent

Knurled
Knurled UltimaDork
9/6/15 6:26 a.m.
EvanR wrote: Other countries have VERY stringent towing regulations. Maximum speeds are 80 km/h. Tongue weights are lower, 5% of total trailer weight vs. 10-15% in the US. By using a lower tongue weight percentage, smaller cars can tow better. HOWEVER, with a tongue loaded that lightly, the trailer will begin to wag the dog at speeds over 80 km/h.

I knew about the speed restrictions but I didn't know about the tongue weight. I'm no trailer expert but I wouldn't want to that fast with a trailer that lightly loaded down.

Last weekend I drove a Miata with my Perfect Trailer. (4x4 Harbor Freight unit) Tool box on the back half and 6 mounted tires on the front half, probably 100lb of tongue weight. I literally didn't know it was back there. I was accelerating "briskly" up an uphill on-ramp and was wondering why the car felt slow. Then I remembered that there was ~600lb of trailer behind me...

Rock stable at 100... um... units of speed measure. It's actually more stable with trailer than without. I noted the same effect with my RX-7 - there is a kind of drogue chute effect when towing a small trailer that calms everything down at speed.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
9/6/15 11:26 a.m.
EvanR wrote:
Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: No one has answered his question: can insurance deny coverage in the event of an accident. "Don't have an accident" is a ridiculous non-answer.
Aside from "call your insurance agent", we are not insurance agents, so we're not qualified to answer this. My *best guess* is that just because your car's manufacturer recommends against towing does NOT make it illegal to tow. Since you're not doing anything illegal, why would your insurance deny you a claim?

The next issue is tearing out the unibody/subframe as it probably wasn't designed to carry a load like a trailer on it.

Pretty simple though, look at your axle weight ratings. You "can't" (shouldn't) go over those or the gross vehicle weight rating. I am sure insurance will cover you, but as stated, it probably makes it a lot easier to be marked "at fault" and then hello skyrocketing premiums.

Knurled
Knurled UltimaDork
9/6/15 11:36 a.m.
HiTempguy wrote: The next issue is tearing out the unibody/subframe as it probably wasn't designed to carry a load like a trailer on it.

The Hidden Hitch that I installed in an Acura... something or other (I don't know the letters, it's the Accord) is held up by a 8mm U-bolt through the central tie-down hook, and a 10mm bolt through the sheetmetal chassis rail over each muffler. This sticks in my head because I did it on Friday.

The Curt hitch in my Volvo is more comprehensive - it's a single 10mm U-bolt through the central tie-down hook, and four 10mm bolts through the thin sheetmetal of the spare tire well. THIS sticks in my head because I'm thinking the hitch will fall off the car in two years after the spare tire well rusts out due to the holes I had to drill.

And that one is rated for 200lb tongue/2000lb trailer weight.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
9/6/15 12:26 p.m.

So? If it wasn't engineered for it, it wasn't engineered for it. I don't know what your point is? As someone said, just because you CAN do something (and get away with it) doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic UltimaDork
9/6/15 1:15 p.m.

Such a connection is plenty strong enough for a 2000 lb trailer/200lb tongue. Think of the directions of the forces, and the sort of loading the tow hook and/or or the tow hook slots in the rear rails is expected to handle(e.g. dragging it out of a ditch). Steel is a lot stronger than most people think and Curt/Reese/Hidden Hitch aren't going to sell something that will tear out in anything approaching the specified usage, the standard 3.0 safety factor is certainly maintained, if not better.

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