Toyobaru: Magic or Smoke and Mirrors?

I'm waiting for Frisbee vs ND Miata.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Heya, just a little input from a bald, middle-aged guy. If you're in the "what's an Initial D" camp and saying that with the same kind of pride I sometimes say "I haven't heard a single song in the top 10 right now" do yourself a favor. Check it out. Watch it with an open mind as if you're the first person to ever discover it. It's actually pretty cool. I got way hooked. Hey, man, you don't have to tell anyone. It's like not telling your hipster friends that you kinda like Cold Play. And it's not *really* about how nothing is faster than an 86. It's more about a kid who's dad taught him to drive fast kind of surreptitiously. Then the kid found out that he could win these races, even though he wasn't all that into the whole thing. Then, slowly, he kind of realizes he does love it. The 86, through the whole thing is regarded as a car that shouldn't be able to beat anything, but it does, not because of it's amazing attributes, but because of the kids natural ability. When he inevitably wins, his competition invariably says something like "I can't believe I lost to an old 86!" Kinda like a good driver in a Miata beating a Corvette. If you get past the generational baggage, it's the kind of stuff GRMers should love.

QFT. I am not really into the animated series, I like the live action movie though, regardless of how true it stays to the "original" story.

It doesn't really matter if various individuals here haven't heard of InitialD - what's important is that there are a lot of people who have. And that's one of the big sources of the initial buzz for the car. Kinda like the way the Skyline was introduced to North America via Gran Turismo. The proposed specs helped as well in other circles.

I tried to get into InitialD via the anime. Couldn't do it. I found a lot of the animation simply ugly and AE86-san seemed to win at least 75% of his races by hooking an inside wheel into a curb. I'll give it another try someday though. I'd rather watch eX-Driver. At least the girls are cute and you get a Seven, a Europa and a Stratos instead of an old Japanese economy car

Keith wrote: It doesn't really matter if various individuals here haven't heard of InitialD - what's important is that there are a lot of people who have. And that's one of the big sources of the initial buzz for the car.

We call that the Initial B.

Keith wrote: I tried to get into InitialD via the anime. Couldn't do it. I found a lot of the animation simply ugly and AE86-san seemed to win at least 75% of his races by hooking an inside wheel into a curb. I'll give it another try someday though. I'd rather watch eX-Driver. At least the girls are cute and you get a Seven, a Europa and a Stratos instead of an old Japanese economy car

You didn't get far enough. There's a whole line of it that's about his familiarity with that mountain pass and that car. That's why he can't lose in the Corolla. The implication is that some other driver, maybe even a better driver, couldn't just jump in and do what he does in that car, and early on, on that road.

Later in the series he learns more and uses fewer, or at least different tricks. There's a neat one where the road is too narrow to pass unless you three wheel and hang the inside front over an open trench like drain. I read on a couple of forums where dungaree wearing youth didn't think it was possible to do this. Of course, any of us who have autocrossed (or, I assume, road raced) have seen rear wheel drive cars hang an inside front off the ground many times. Could you really pass a car like that? Dunno. I couldn't. But its fun and it's kida cooler than the typical Speed Racer "just push the gas harder" story line you'd expect in an animated series.

Meh, it is what it is. I'm not saying it's some great work of art. Just saying to folks turned off by the hype- it's worth getting past that and giving it a shot. I really enjoyed it and went on to watch several more japanimation series. I liked several of them, but Initial D is my favorite.

I watched the first season/stage/whatever. That's about 13 hours of it. It's been about 8 years, so I don't remember if he had to three-wheel a pass but I've seen enough fast BMWs to know that's not an issue

Another thing to consider is the Japanese take anime a lot more seriously than we do in the US, so the connection to Initial D is probably a bit more important.

Keith wrote: I tried to get into InitialD via the anime. Couldn't do it. I found a lot of the animation simply ugly and AE86-san seemed to win at least 75% of his races by hooking an inside wheel into a curb. I'll give it another try someday though.

The art gets a LOT better in 3rd/4th stage. Being that 3rd stage is a movie, try watching that to see if the art is good enough for you. Basically involves one race against an SW20 and another against a Celica GT-4.

And in response to earlier comments, the issue with the Genesis Coupe is that it started by promising a lightweight RWD 2+2 that would be the cheapest USDM car with 300hp. Then it gained 500+ lbs over what was speculated, pushing it deep into pony car territory. That, and go price one out. A new 2.0T R-spec (cheapest way to get one without an open diff) with no options MSRPs for over $27k. At that point, it's lost it's price advantage over the Mustang, leaving the only advantages being the warranty and maybe the IRS (oh, an 8-speed auto! )

icaneat50eggs wrote: Now I think the real genius of this hype machine was stringing out that initial picture over several years, with small little bumps, oh, first 2200 lbs, then a non turbo engine, then a 2400 lbs, then no turbo,(yet) then 2600 lbs. The thing was it was never one killer blow that drove off the interest, just a slow protracted project creep to from the dream to the final project.

Let's see what does that hype remind me of?

Oh yea!

Yes initial reports in 2006/2007 were closer to real production specs than the frisbee, however the hype surrounding the Genesis prior to production with rumors of the V8 are right up there with it.

Concepts are fun but there's always the matter of the real world production costs, required safety equipment, and crash test standards.

Edit: I need to read the whole thread before being snarky.

my original attraction to the new rwd coupe....

1) Toyota involvement 2) $20k price point 3) lightweight

Btw.... I did offer to David Wallens if they wanted a new vs old test I'd be happy to lend them Surreptitious. Only problem is I'm 2800 miles away, otherwise he'd consider it

4cylndrfury wrote: Im still a little bit concerned that we are bellyaching about the MARKETING strategy of a company who FINALLY GAVE US A SPORTY, AFTERMARKET SUPPORTED, RWD, SPORTY, RELATIVELY LIGHTWEIGHT, SPORTY, HI-PO CAPABLE, SPORTY, CAR...THAT IS SPORTY. I mean seriously guys, wtf? WHO THE HELL CARES...at least they are selling, to the U.S. no less - we never get the good stuff. At least its here, well received, and available. Who cares what Gimmickry they used? I dont care if they snuck into my bathroom while I was showering, and inserted ads into every magazine in the rack - as long as I like it, it makes sense, and I can afford it, it works for me.

I am not bellyaching. I am admiring and trying to learn from what I consider successful media manipulation.

Since I own one of these, I can tell you that the hoopla is not all THAT deserved, hence there has to be some orchestration going on that I want to learn from.

Don't get me wrong, the car is exactly what I wanted. It also came along at a point where I needed to buy a new car. The fact that it was cheap (in my eyes) did not hurt. But it is not as significant as say the Miata was back in 1989.

I suspect that half the people who are yelling "Mustangs are better" are actually Scion marketing people who are fanning the flames to keep the noise level up!

Keith wrote: I watched the first season/stage/whatever. That's about 13 hours of it. It's been about 8 years, so I don't remember if he had to three-wheel a pass but I've seen enough fast BMWs to know that's not an issue

13 hours? Sheesh. You barely made a scratch.

Yeah, like anything, some people like it, some don't. I just don't want people to dismiss it out of hand, especially car people. I'd heard of it for years before I finally watched. I assumed I wouldn't like it. But I had a blast watching it and I guess I just want people to know it's worth a shot. If you give it a shot and it's not your thing, that's cool too.

I'll try the later stages and see what I think - thanks for the suggestions on that.

I think a lot of it has to do with timing and genius marketing. There is an element to the Toybaru twins marketing that feels like it channels "simplicity" and "minimalism" as much as any new car does. Whether it is or not I do not want to argue but the way it is perceived publicly is

1) more practical than a convertible or dedicated 2 seat coupe 2) more economical than a genesis/350z/v6 mustang (I don't know this again I just "feel" like because its small and simple it must be) 3) more "pure" essence of driving, again more than likely all marketing like VWs old Farfenugen adds or whatever

Oh and on Initial D I read most of it but get confused as to when I left off or what all I have seen :)

Like he's on the pro team with the brothers? And last I remember they took on the Godhand and Godfoot guys, then there was the race vs a rally driver?

NOHOME wrote: On a more interesting note, ... I would like to take a moment to reflect on all the media hoopla that this car has garnered... The competition to this car, all combined, have not collected a drop in the bucket of media attention compared to the tsunami of press that has been accorded the Twins. As someone who has to make stuff that people will want to buy, I am more fascinated by this aspect than I am by the car itself. ...How the hell did they orchestrate the circus of attention compared to the Mustang and 370Z and Genesis opposition? Can the hive delve into its own psyche and expose the circuit that acts as a receptor to this phenomena so I can understand?

Why are most of the Hollywood blockbusters these days remakes of older movies, comic book heroes, or TV shows? Pre-existing fan base! The Frisbee taps into both the Toyota/drifter fanbase and the Subaru WRX fanbase. Those two groups together account for a big part of the sports car market in the country, I'd guess.

Also, those two groups are very active on the internet, and the internet is an echo chamber. So the Frisbee story echoed over and over.

The (normal, non-GRM) car magazines are struggling to find something, anything, to write about. And they are struggling to stay in business and are all trying to tap into and/or stake a claim on the internet. So they heard the Frisbee reverberating in the echo chamber and piled on with tons of stories.

David

Jaynen wrote: 3) more "pure" essence of driving, again more than likely all marketing like VWs old Farfenugen adds or whatever

Nope. If you drive one, you find that it's got a precision feel and responsiveness than the heavier cars lack and you really won't find in any other new car until you get to $70k Cayman or M3 territory. It's not marketing, the car was intensively engineeered to be this way. I've driven them, and driven autocross sports cars for the last 30 years. It really is an excellent driver's car, not merely another small economy car with a good marketing team.

Though it does have a good marketing team as well, and releasing them on an autocross course at cities nationwide was a stroke of genious, as those of us that drove them give great word of mouth.

Jaynen wrote: Oh and on Initial D I read most of it but get confused as to when I left off or what all I have seen :) Like he's on the pro team with the brothers? And last I remember they took on the Godhand and Godfoot guys, then there was the race vs a rally driver?

The rally driver was the one in the Suzuki Cappuccino, that happened before Godhand/Godfoot which is the last races that have been animated. The manga continues on, and is still being written to this day.

In reply to Chris_V:

Yeah I was not saying it was false, just saying that is what the vehicle seems to embody when compared to the others and why I think it is a bigger splash in the pool

I am glad to hear that is true. Of course I went the cheapo route and picked up an NA miata for now

Sort of related to this conversation... I've seen two frsbrzs. At least one was driven by a woman, asian american in fact. I also noticed a woman of the same demo at a bus stop across the street staring hard at the car. I won't assume these ladies are into the car just because it's new and cute. But start counting up the yen if they do think it so. I think of the vast number of women I've seen in the diamond star coupes, celica, and of course miata and hope they take a shine to the frsbrz as well. Oh and I still mainly see guys in the Fiat 500.

Oh, I do hope the Frisbee drivers take over the "girly car" stigma

Keith wrote: I watched the first season/stage/whatever. That's about 13 hours of it.

26 episodes at 24-25 minutes each, minus five or six minutes of opening/end theme, minus endless recapping at the beginning of each episode = you watched about four hours.

(And if you recall, it wasn't that the AE86 was fast, it's that the driver was fast, but still)

I find it endlessly amusing that he hated driving his dad's Subaru because it was so easy to drive fast.

Knurled wrote: (And if you recall, it wasn't that the AE86 was fast, it's that the driver was fast, but still)

IIRC that only really became obvious (to me at least, in the Manga) when he followed the guys from Tokyo(?) down the mountain driving the wheels off Iggy's AE85.

I've actually never watched the anime, only read the Manga until I thought it became a little too repetitive.

In reply to BoxheadTim:

Did you see the one where he was challenged to a race and faced impossible odds and it looked like he was going to lose, but then he realized something just in time and was able to pull out a win?

That was a good one.

Hard to get excited about a car when their marketing department thinks 200 horsepower is a big deal

failboat wrote: I am not really into the animated series, I like the live action movie though, regardless of how true it stays to the "original" story.

I've never read/watched the original, but did recently watch that film. It is not a "must own", but I thought it was OK. Likewise, I'm not bothered that it is not faithful to the original.....close enough for me to get the flavor of the series without spending the time/energy to follow many episodes