Toyota Suspends Sales!

The first time I ever heard of 'ice mode', it was w/r/t autoxing an MRS.

Oh how I hope that this fiasco does something to fix ice mode on other cars. It's bullE36 M3 that something that is supposed to make braking better has a scenario where it removes braking all together.

The only vehicle I own with ABS is the tow rig, which coincidentally also has TBW. Does this mean I will die?

DILYSI Dave wrote: Oh how I hope that this fiasco does something to fix ice mode on other cars. It's bullE36 M3 that something that is supposed to make braking better has a scenario where it removes braking all together.

it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

this is not a rhetorical question: do cars with full ESC / DSC / whatever acronym for "stability control" exhibit ice-mode behavior while autocrossing?

oh, and Bobzilla, it was nice knowing you.

AngryCorvair wrote: this is not a rhetorical question: do cars with full ESC / DSC / whatever acronym for "stability control" exhibit ice-mode behavior while autocrossing?

No idea. Only car I had with DSC was the 540, and I never autocrossed it. I've never autocrossed the WRX, but it's brakes are crap on any loose surface. Not nearly as good as a non-ABS car. On wet asphalt they kick ass, but start playing in the snow or on gravel and they turn to E36 M3.

AngryCorvair wrote:

it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

Question - Why is it that when the ABS gets freaked out, it defaults to no brakes. It seems like it's better default position would be to just disable, so that even though the computer doesn't know what it wants, at least the driver still has some input.

WRX brakes really do suck on loose surfaces-stopping fine then all of the sudden-OH CRAP and you are 3 feet farther forward than you should be.

I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all.

It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote:

it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

Question - Why is it that when the ABS gets freaked out, it defaults to no brakes. It seems like it's better default position would be to just disable, so that even though the computer doesn't know what it wants, at least the driver still has some input.

Without seeing the wheel speed and pressure transducer data, I can't say whether a car goes into "no brakes" (ie dumps pressure to non-affected corners) or if it goes into "no more brakes" (ie isolates corners from MC so no additional pressure can be applied).

I have never experienced "ice mode" except when driving on ice. I'm not denying its existence, I'm only saying that I don't know exactly how it is implemented.

Keep in mind that vehicle manufacturers do not all have the same philosophies concerning FMEAs, nor do they have the same set of requirements for performance, diagnostics, etc.

Also keep in mind that there may be a hundred different tires that will fit on the OE wheels for any particular vehicle at the time of that vehicle's manufacture, and there will certainly be new ones available in the future. It is impossible for an OE to develop performance calibrations for every possible combination that could wind up on that vehicle within a day of it being put out on the street, so systems are developed on the OE tire, and in the case of a vehicle that comes with summer-only tires it will probably (at the mfg's discretion) be developed on an OE-recommended snow tire.

Another non-rhetorical question: does ice mode happen on every car with ABS?

And one more: does ice mode only happen on sticky tires, or is it documented to occur on OE no-seasons as well?

ignorant wrote: I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all. It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

The real problem was the traction control. It was set up for pavement and was super intrusive off road, obviously the safety Nazis were deeply involved in deciding the parameters.

There is a method of permanently disabling the traction control which involves some weird gyrations. Seriously. You have to turn the steering certain amounts both ways so many times, hold the ESP button etc and it will disable the ABS. The '08's are already set up to allow this, '07's will need a reflash of the ESP/ABS module for it to work.

Shamelessly ripped off from a Jeep forum:

Key pointers: have engine running, don't worry about hearing chimes, and move to the next step immediately after completing each step.

1. Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear. b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete. c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position. Firmly set parking brake. d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centered and the wheels are pointed straight ahead. e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the right (clockwise). HOLD steering wheel in this position. f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. (You will hear a chime at 5 secs, ignore it) g. Turn the steering wheel back to center, then turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the left (counterclockwise). HOLD the steering wheel in this position. h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. i. Turn the steering wheel back to center. j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.

2. While the Permanent ESP Disable feature is turned on, the vehicle will display the following: a. The ESP telltale in the instrument cluster will be illuminated. b. The vehicle odometer will display a “ESP OFF” message.

3. To Turn OFF The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Repeat the above procedure (in Step 1).

AngryCorvair wrote: Another non-rhetorical question: does ice mode happen on every car with ABS? And one more: does ice mode only happen on sticky tires, or is it documented to occur on OE no-seasons as well?

I had never heard of ice mode until a few weeks ago but in my brothers 94 Cavalier and again in my 99 I have experienced it several times.
The scary part is that with them you did not need ice, aggressive driving, or bald tires. When the road is damp, either in the morning or when it begins to rain and you apply the brakes for a stop sign on occasion the computer will turn off the brakes until you lift your foot and start over. I am pretty sure that the brakes release because going down hill you will pick up speed. I have found that the only way to avoid it is to keep name GOOD all season or snow tires on the car and replace them when they wear enough for this to start happening. Oddly my 02 Malibu's ABS will work perfectly in the snow with four bald tires. I don't know how they got one so wrong and one dead on.

Jensenman wrote:

ignorant wrote: I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all. It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

The real problem was the traction control. It was set up for pavement and was super intrusive off road, obviously the safety Nazis were deeply involved in deciding the parameters. There is a method of permanently disabling the traction control which involves some weird gyrations. Seriously. You have to turn the steering certain amounts both ways so many times, hold the ESP button etc and it will disable the ABS. The '08's are already set up to allow this, '07's will need a reflash of the ESP/ABS module for it to work. Shamelessly ripped off from a Jeep forum: Key pointers: have engine running, don't worry about hearing chimes, and move to the next step immediately after completing each step. 1. Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear. b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete. c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position. Firmly set parking brake. d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centered and the wheels are pointed straight ahead. e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the right (clockwise). HOLD steering wheel in this position. f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. (You will hear a chime at 5 secs, ignore it) g. Turn the steering wheel back to center, then turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the left (counterclockwise). HOLD the steering wheel in this position. h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. i. Turn the steering wheel back to center. j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position. 2. While the Permanent ESP Disable feature is turned on, the vehicle will display the following: a. The ESP telltale in the instrument cluster will be illuminated. b. The vehicle odometer will display a “ESP OFF” message. 3. To Turn OFF The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Repeat the above procedure (in Step 1).

Naw man I'm talkin 97 jeep not 2007 jeep. No trac control on early tj's