Track Car: e30 vs miata

Spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on something that won't make my E30 any faster is roughly #193273 on the priority list. It'll look fine with some fresh paint and tucked bumpers when I'm done.

Back on topic, I've been through this decision process myself, and have owned a Miata before my current E30. I've also had an E36 M3. I personally think the E30 is a better track car because it has more power and it has a roof. To me, any decent roll bar in a Miata compromises it too much for street duty. You lose seat travel and your head gets pretty darn close to the bar. And if you are over 5'10" or so, you're still going to have trouble with the "broomstick test".

Having bought quite a few aftermarket parts for both cars, I don't think there's a big enough difference in the quantity or price of those parts for it to be a deciding factor in favor of either one.

Neither is particularly hard to work on, but the engine bay in the Miata is more cramped.

Of course, as has been said, the E36 these days is just as cheap if not cheaper than the E30, and is a better car in pretty much every meaningful way except being heavier. But, to me, it's also kind of a bland, soulless 90s sedan. I like and respect the E36, but I don't want one.

Darksider203 wrote:

z31maniac wrote: And swapping in any E36 engine into the E30 is also painfully easy and dramatically increases performance. No one does M3 Body kits, well maybe 0.001%. The big bumpers aren't on the later model cars. And early model cars can have plastic bumpers for a bit of work.

I meant ugly bumpers lol. Go type "e30" into google images and see what pops up..

Yep, I'm guessing since I've owned 3, built an S52 swap car, etc. I probably know nothing about them or the scene.

Given your other posts in this thread, I can only assume that you are trolling us all hard.

Swank Force One wrote: 2) You're wrong. This isn't ClubRoadster you're on. And no really... there's not many E30s rolling around with M3 body kits, because people just don't do that. All non-M E30s are not equipped with ugly bumpers. I don't even know why we're talking about body kits. This is Grassroots Motorsports, not "Pimp My Ride."

Agreed. Even lurking on the E30 forums, body kits are pretty rare and it's even more rare they actually improve the look of the car.

There was one guy who went through great lengths to make his car look like an M3, but he used mostly factory sheet metal and completely rebuilt the car (and then installed a BMW V8). For the amount of work and money he spent (ignoring the fact he runs a body shop), it probably would have been cheaper to start with a real M3.

Yes, the most popule complaint is the "diving board bumpers" of the 80's cars. Converting to the later plastic bumpers is somewhat popular, or you can do what irish44 did and "tuck" them.

Personally, I prefer the car to be original so I've left them as is on my '88.

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Forgot to ask - have you driven both? The "feel" is very different between the two of them. I personally - as someone who owns a 1.8 Miata and an E30, albeit a 325ix - prefer the way the Miata feels when driven hard, even though the BMW is a much more practical car.

that is a really good point. I have a supercharged 1.6l NA miata, and a good friend let me drive his e36 M3 (close enough) at an autocross for a season (before I got miata) and those 2 are VERY different cars. but all in all, I actually fit better in the miata, and like the "feel" of it too.

How does someone fit better in a Miata than an E36?

e26: power leather seats, sunroof. Miata: cloth seats... convertible.

With a helmet on I cannot fir in head in the e36... I have to sit slightly angled with my noggin' partially out the sunroof.... the roof gets out of the way in the miata.

also his M3 just feels.. cramped to me.

But I do realize I MAY have am issue with not clearing a rollbar.... time for a foamectomy!

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Forgot to ask - have you driven both? The "feel" is very different between the two of them. I personally - as someone who owns a 1.8 Miata and an E30, albeit a 325ix - prefer the way the Miata feels when driven hard, even though the BMW is a much more practical car.

that is a really good point. I have a supercharged 1.6l NA miata, and a good friend let me drive his e36 M3 (close enough) at an autocross for a season (before I got miata) and those 2 are VERY different cars. but all in all, I actually fit better in the miata, and like the "feel" of it too.

How does someone fit better in a Miata than an E36?

e26: power leather seats, sunroof. Miata: cloth seats... convertible. With a helmet on I cannot fir in head in the e36... I have to sit slightly angled with my noggin' partially out the sunroof.... the roof gets out of the way in the miata. also his M3 just feels.. cramped to me. But I do realize I MAY have am issue with not clearing a rollbar.... time for a foamectomy!

Ah makes sense. I keep forgetting that convertibles have infinite headroom.

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Forgot to ask - have you driven both? The "feel" is very different between the two of them. I personally - as someone who owns a 1.8 Miata and an E30, albeit a 325ix - prefer the way the Miata feels when driven hard, even though the BMW is a much more practical car.

that is a really good point. I have a supercharged 1.6l NA miata, and a good friend let me drive his e36 M3 (close enough) at an autocross for a season (before I got miata) and those 2 are VERY different cars. but all in all, I actually fit better in the miata, and like the "feel" of it too.

How does someone fit better in a Miata than an E36?

e26: power leather seats, sunroof. Miata: cloth seats... convertible. With a helmet on I cannot fir in head in the e36... I have to sit slightly angled with my noggin' partially out the sunroof.... the roof gets out of the way in the miata. also his M3 just feels.. cramped to me. But I do realize I MAY have am issue with not clearing a rollbar.... time for a foamectomy!

Ah makes sense. I keep forgetting that convertibles have infinite headroom.

and that honestly played a HUGE part in my go to fun car decision.

No matter how much you might like the ease of passing tech with a hardtop.. nothing beats a convertible to make any car better, for a nice drive down a backroad. (under the stars is my favorite time).

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Forgot to ask - have you driven both? The "feel" is very different between the two of them. I personally - as someone who owns a 1.8 Miata and an E30, albeit a 325ix - prefer the way the Miata feels when driven hard, even though the BMW is a much more practical car.

that is a really good point. I have a supercharged 1.6l NA miata, and a good friend let me drive his e36 M3 (close enough) at an autocross for a season (before I got miata) and those 2 are VERY different cars. but all in all, I actually fit better in the miata, and like the "feel" of it too.

How does someone fit better in a Miata than an E36?

e26: power leather seats, sunroof. Miata: cloth seats... convertible. With a helmet on I cannot fir in head in the e36... I have to sit slightly angled with my noggin' partially out the sunroof.... the roof gets out of the way in the miata. also his M3 just feels.. cramped to me. But I do realize I MAY have am issue with not clearing a rollbar.... time for a foamectomy!

Ah makes sense. I keep forgetting that convertibles have infinite headroom.

and that honestly played a HUGE part in my go to fun car decision. No matter how much you might like the ease of passing tech with a hardtop.. nothing beats a convertible to make any car better, for a nice drive down a backroad. (under the stars is my favorite time).

I can see why... but i'm honestly not a convertible fan at all. Wish i had found that out before you know.... i bought a convertible.

At night under the stars is pretty cool, though. I hate it any other time.

Darksider203 wrote: He said he wants a nice car that he can bring to the track but he was concerned about ruining it at the track. I assumed he probably been checking out slammed e30 pics and that is the look he wants to achieve, meaning he would want to invest in a body kit which is very expensive. And you wouldnt want to ruin it at a track.. Judging by many e30 pictures and magazines a majority of people use a body kit to make there e30 look good

We get that's what you think. Give it a rest. You don't have to post the same opinion 6 times in the same thread.

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

SCARRMRCC wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Forgot to ask - have you driven both? The "feel" is very different between the two of them. I personally - as someone who owns a 1.8 Miata and an E30, albeit a 325ix - prefer the way the Miata feels when driven hard, even though the BMW is a much more practical car.

that is a really good point. I have a supercharged 1.6l NA miata, and a good friend let me drive his e36 M3 (close enough) at an autocross for a season (before I got miata) and those 2 are VERY different cars. but all in all, I actually fit better in the miata, and like the "feel" of it too.

How does someone fit better in a Miata than an E36?

e26: power leather seats, sunroof. Miata: cloth seats... convertible. With a helmet on I cannot fir in head in the e36... I have to sit slightly angled with my noggin' partially out the sunroof.... the roof gets out of the way in the miata. also his M3 just feels.. cramped to me. But I do realize I MAY have am issue with not clearing a rollbar.... time for a foamectomy!

Ah makes sense. I keep forgetting that convertibles have infinite headroom.

and that honestly played a HUGE part in my go to fun car decision. No matter how much you might like the ease of passing tech with a hardtop.. nothing beats a convertible to make any car better, for a nice drive down a backroad. (under the stars is my favorite time).

I can see why... but i'm honestly not a convertible fan at all. Wish i had found that out before you know.... i bought a convertible. At night under the stars is pretty cool, though. I hate it any other time.

interestingly, I HATE the sun....

but of all the cars all except 3 have had sunroof/moonroofs.. and those 3 (2 of them I still currently have/drive) are converts.

Darksider203 wrote: Judging by many e30 pictures and magazines a majority of people use a body kit to make there e30 look good

There are only two reasons for a body "kit" (aka flares). They are both equally as valid.

1) To accommodate wider slicks
2) See #1

Any other reason is because [ gay slur ].

psteav wrote: I hate to be the guy who responds with "C" when someone asks if they should go with "A" or "B", but...have you considered a Civic hatch? -Space for tools and tires without a trailer -cheapest consumables out there -easy and cheap used upgrades (including cages, which you're gonna need) -Cheaper buy-in than either a Miata or E30 in comparable condition I own a Miata, and I love it. However, fitting in one with a track-legal rollbar is a pain if you're much taller than 5' 10" (although there are workarounds for that. -E30's are great, but they're getting scarce. The guy who suggested an E36 might be on to something.

This.

Sorry, probably not helping at this point....but chiming in as another E30 owner, the stock (plastic) ones look just about perfect. Different wheels and maybe some sport springs/struts? Sure. Bodykits? Um....no. No no. HELL no.

To the OP, I had a 1990 325i and a 1991 1.6 Miata. I much preferred the E30 for its all rounder capability. With an 8lb flywheel, good tires, brakes, and suspension, it was a hoot to drive, on or off the track. Then at the end of the day, I could pick up 3-4 friends and go to dinner, and it was quiet and comfortable. I still REALLY like Miatas, but they're more specialized. That can be a good or bad thing.

The answer he seeks is E36 or S2000. Shhhh.

I keep getting more and more interested in E36's. I suspect that they may start to be one of the answers. Five years ago CL was swimming in cheap e30's, now they're almost gone like the turbo dodges and Volvo 240's before them.

Well, I only skimmed the twisted-panties section of the thread, but I've read enough. Settle down young-ins, and stop E30 M3ing on this nice thread! (See what I did there?)

Darksider203 wrote: Then dont accuse me of being a forum troll because what i said makes perfect sense. I could care less if you owned even 6 e30's because its obvious to me you might not know the Exterior scene of e30's as well as you think you do. Maybe you should try again and buy another one that way you can catch on to what alot of serious e30 guys Do to make there car look good. You dont see any stock e30's at hellaflush and canibeat car shows.. Stock is ugly..its good For racing it doesnt matter about that. Now go reread the actual purpose of what this guy wants to Achieve..as i said i gaurentee thats the scene hes into..i already explained what i meant "6" times though, if You know what i meant why are you argueing with me about it? Dont try to play me bro

You used the words "scene", "hellaflush", "canibeat", and "bro". I believe that makes anything you say invalid.

That being said, a semi-official GRMer has said tone it down. With that:

Alright i appologize for ruining this thread with our Debate. I would like to be friends with swankforceone or at least nuetral. I just get upset when someone tries To make me look stupid. It doesnt matter anymore though, i didnt come here to start arguements. So with that said. Im truly sorry and i was wrong for going off like that

We don't have a problem. I imagine you probably pissed off the 5-10 actual E30 owners/racers that posted in this thread a bit more than myself.

Swank Force One wrote: I imagine you probably pissed off the 5-10 actual E30 owners/racers that posted in this thread a bit more than myself.

No, no, I'm completely fine. shakes uncontrollably

Tom Suddard wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: I imagine you probably pissed off the 5-10 actual E30 owners/racers that posted in this thread a bit more than myself.

No, no, I'm completely fine. *shakes uncontrollably*

Don't worry Tommy, that's just your nervous twitch.

Lol im sorry guys

My .02:

There is no wrong answer to this question. Whatever you decide on, you will be happy.

Drive the cars you're considering: E30, Miata, E36, etc. Does one make you smile more? Question answered.

Hunt CL. Can you find a good example of any of these cars that has obviously been better taken care of? Buy the good example over the specific model.

All that aside, I would say Miata or E36. The E36 may lack some "character" of an E30, but will be newer and have better performance for basically the same price. The E36 is on the bottom of its depreciation curve, E30's are swinging up for good examples.

I have a Miata, so I am biased, but it's great. The Miata lacks some practicality, but makes up for that in being a ton of fun just driving around. It's a 'vert. You can cruise around on a nice day and enjoy having a cool car even when driving relatively sedately. Mine has been stupid reliable and incredibly easy to work on. Mine has seen track duty, auto-x, and drift. Only thing it's needed beyond fluids and consumables as been a new radiator. It took 116 degrees as Thunderhill to kill the plastic end cap on the stock radiator.

They are built like legos. My dad balled up his '99 at Laguna Seca. Because the drivetrain and almost all the suspension were still good (control arms bent on one corner), he got a beater '90, and we swapped over all the parts onto that. Pretty much plug-and-play. That means that parts made as late as '04 will continue to fit your early '90s car. The same can not be said for the E30.

If the only goal is open track, the E36 might be better. It will have a better engine and a tin top. It will also be able to haul more stuff. With another car in the garage though, I'd rather have my spare be a Miata. Just change your wheels and tires at home and drive on them to and from the track. I've done that plenty of time on my NT01's and RA1's. The trunk and passenger seat will easily accomodate all the other gear you bring to the track.

And if you're talking car shows... track cars get beat up. They get ugly. If they aren't, you aren't driving them right. My Porsche 944Spec race car has a nice two-tone paint job entirely in rustoleum blue and yellow. My Miata has a slightly mis-matched door (white, but from a different year/car) and spent plenty of time with dirt clods and grass embedded in the dash from my dad going backwards off the track at about 80mph. First off track excursion the Miata had I was glad I'd just replaced my nice M Coupe with a cheap and ugly car. Also the drift scene has taught me that nice body kits are ugly because they invariably get ripped off during the first off-track excursion.

Here's a quick pic of what happened to the car that should give you an idea of what you can expect from a typical, spin with no damage off-track excursion.

How many scratches do you want in your nice paint, and would you rather spend hours detailing or 15 minutes with a blower and shop vac?

For the benefit of new folks who might think the word Hellaflush is not something you do with big dump...

Here is a general guide, in reverse order, for appropriate use of flares and or body kit when referring to the E30 (and generally applicable across all cars at all times everywhere):

Excellent:

Quite good also:

[GAY SLUR]

[RETARD SLUR WITH VOMITING]

BoxheadTim wrote: I would really do that first, and I would also look at both the e36 318ti and the larger engined e36 variants for a track car. They're simply a few years younger than an e30 and might be in better shape without too much restoration work.

For track days, the coupe/sedan e36's are going to be more forgiving at the limit than a ti.

Personal advice, get a 325is e36, put good suspension and brakes on it, then turbo. That should be a legitimate "budget" built e36 track car.

z31maniac wrote:

irish44j wrote:

Darksider203 wrote: The miata is less expensive, with more parts available.

say what? e30s can be found all day in good running and ok cosmetic condition for $2k or so, and less if you get an ETA or M10 car. I never see decent Miatas anywhere near that, at least not in this area. Parts available? Perhaps, but that's mostly because the Miata has more aftermarket than most any car out there. As aftermarket and OEM/OEM-replacement parts go, it is DAMN easy to find e30 stuff, and it is DAMN inexpensive for the most part. Plus it's simple to find e30s in pick-n-pull yards for replacement parts, engines, transmissions, etc. Miatas, not so much. No question the Miata is a superior track car in terms of performance, but the e30 is simple to work on, parts are cheap, and the cars are cheap.

Links? Or does "OK Cosmetic condition" mean rusty battery tray, rust developing in the sunroof, etc? I what "most" would consider a "nice" car, for an E30 you'll need to double that figure.

I could link you to the one I bought for $1000 just over a year ago (go see my build thread), with 2 small rust spots in the floor and that's it. Also came with a set of euroweave 15x7's, 8 bottlecaps, a spare engine, spare tranny, and I filled the 4Runner with spare parts. .Yeah, it needed some suspension refresh, but that was a few hundred bucks at most. Interior was in decent shape and complete. Body had a respray but wasn't rusty. A few leaks here and there, but nothing that a $5 seal or gasket wouldn't fix.

Granted it was an early M10 car, but $300 got me an M42 engine/tranny that is an easy swap. If you're trying to find e30s at dealers or something, keep looking. Join the local e30 facebook groups, some CL areas, and the forums. ETA cars come up all the time for under $1k on our local FB group.

The cost vs. "nice" is all relative anyhow. I have a $28k WRX that many people wouldn't consider a "nice" car.....

...also find it funny here that people want a "nice" 25+ year old car for peanuts....If he's buying an e30 (or miata) as a track toy, I would expect he's not looking for a turnkey track/street car in great shape, but instead may want a project that requires "some" work to be "nice."

CL who knows....there are steals and there are scams..."needs body work" or "needs paint" who knows...can't know until you look.

http://smd.craigslist.org/cto/3615605074.html

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/3628180055.html

IX that needs a few things but looks to have a very nice interior and exterior. http://martinsburg.craigslist.org/cto/3593831223.html

M10 car that looks to be in great shape but needs a tranny (and I just sold TWO M10 trannies for next to nothing....they're cheap and easy to find)

http://smd.craigslist.org/cto/3615605074.html

that was 2 minutes of looking.....IDK what to tell you. No ETAs up there right now but 2 guys in our race group picked up low-rust, ok-condition ETAs for under $1k within the last year.

all in all the bottom line is there are good deals for those who look hard and wait for the right deal, and not good deals for those who don't look hard or have to have it "today." We all know that here on GRM I think.

It's funny, I thought about getting a Miata before I got the e30, and looked around and the only Miatas I saw for under $2k were totally trashed. But a year later, when I'm not looking, I see decent ones for less than that here and there......because I'm not looking :)