After a good friend successfully survived a major fire during a high-profile race, he dropped a tidbit of knowledge that has lived rent-free in our brains ever since: “Fire burns just as hot on a test day as on race day.”
[How I became a human torch and survived]
In other words, …
The one and only race car fire I've had was on a test day.
Knit shirt on fella in last picture of the article is definitely either all synthetic fiber, or at best a cotton/poly blend. (At least to my eye... My dad owned a men's clothing store when I was growing up, so have some basis for my bold claim)
No that anyone should follow my lead but I tend to wear more safety gear the further the car is from a factory street car. If I had a HANS that worked with 3 point belts I'd wear that most of the time but I don't.
If I'm in an unmodified car I wear a helmet. I don't wear full gear in my Spec. Miata if I'm scuffing tires or giving rides. My thinking is that all of the stuff that might catch on fire is factory and in good shape and I'm only driving at 7 10ths.
If I'm in a full on race car I wear full gear regardless of whether it's a test day/session or a race. An untested car is more likely to have problems than one that's been proven.
What about street racing? It's going to happen if track racing is too expensive.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough.
In a lifetime of racing I had one fire. Working on the car in the pits. Gas sprayed all over me and a spark ignited everything.
WHOOSH!!! I dropped to the ground and rolled the fire out. My eyebrows were shorter and a little of my hair got a little shorter. But no burns.
I had a very expensive fire suppression system that If I'd tried to set it off I'd be dead.
Rules and money to solve them aren't always the answer In fact they can make things worse.
I refer to street racing.
Before any rule should be made. Ask what it will cost and is there a less expensive way to solve the issue.
Look at HPDE how many fatalities and serious injuries doing that has there been with zero requirements?
In reply to frenchyd :
Are you actually saying that your fire suppression system would have killed you while putting out a fire?
In reply to APEowner :
There's some good advice there, and I would agree that the more of a stripped-out, high-strung race car you're driving, the more safety gear you should probably have on you.
In the end, you might look a little silly and feel overdressed for the event, but I'd rather be safe than "one of the cool kids."
I was behind someone at a trackday event and as we slowed for a hard left turn, his car suddenly veered left, cutting the turn, crossed back over the track and went straight into a concrete wall. Cause was traced to either a broken brake disc or a popped brake hose, don't remember which. Was just dumb luck that no one was on that segment of track that he crossed, as it would then have involved multiple cars. Point being, even in "low speed" untimed amateur events, stuff can and does happen, and it's not always driver error. So, yes, be prepared to get wrecked.
Colin Wood said:In reply to APEowner :
There's some good advice there, and I would agree that the more of a stripped-out, high-strung race car you're driving, the more safety gear you should probably have on you.
In the end, you might look a little silly and feel overdressed for the event, but I'd rather be safe than "one of the cool kids."
When I'm not wearing safety gear it's not because I don't want to look silly and overdressed it's because I don't want to take the time to change (or maybe I'm just lazy) and I don't like to wear gloves. I do try and make deliberate decisions about safety gear based on the risk of what I'm doing but I would never, ever criticize someone for wearing more gear than the rules require or having a lower comfort level than I do for something.
APEowner said:Colin Wood said:In reply to APEowner :
There's some good advice there, and I would agree that the more of a stripped-out, high-strung race car you're driving, the more safety gear you should probably have on you.
In the end, you might look a little silly and feel overdressed for the event, but I'd rather be safe than "one of the cool kids."
When I'm not wearing safety gear it's not because I don't want to look silly and overdressed it's because I don't want to take the time to change (or maybe I'm just lazy) and I don't like to wear gloves. I do try and make deliberate decisions about safety gear based on the risk of what I'm doing but I would never, ever criticize someone for wearing more gear than the rules require or having a lower comfort level than I do for something.
Personally I wear all my safety gear every time I go out on track -- I'd feel really stupid (if only for a short period of time) if I died in a fire when I had a race suit hanging in the trailer.
The two items not mentioned in the article are socks and balaclavas. They're pretty inexpensive and easy to deal with, but one thing that's worth noting is that SFI socks tend to be a lot thinner than many street socks, so if you're trying on race shoes you want to make sure it do it with the kind of socks you'll be wearing on track.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:APEowner said:Colin Wood said:In reply to APEowner :
There's some good advice there, and I would agree that the more of a stripped-out, high-strung race car you're driving, the more safety gear you should probably have on you.
In the end, you might look a little silly and feel overdressed for the event, but I'd rather be safe than "one of the cool kids."
When I'm not wearing safety gear it's not because I don't want to look silly and overdressed it's because I don't want to take the time to change (or maybe I'm just lazy) and I don't like to wear gloves. I do try and make deliberate decisions about safety gear based on the risk of what I'm doing but I would never, ever criticize someone for wearing more gear than the rules require or having a lower comfort level than I do for something.
Personally I wear all my safety gear every time I go out on track -- I'd feel really stupid (if only for a short period of time) if I died in a fire when I had a race suit hanging in the trailer.
The two items not mentioned in the article are socks and balaclavas. They're pretty inexpensive and easy to deal with, but one thing that's worth noting is that SFI socks tend to be a lot thinner than many street socks, so if you're trying on race shoes you want to make sure it do it with the kind of socks you'll be wearing on track.
Except it did mention both:
"Pair that with some SFI-rated socks, and you’re eligible for an SCCA national road race.”
"We’re also proponents of always donning a balaclava before pulling on that helmet. It serves as an additional layer of safety, as hair–including facial hair–is extremely flammable. Plus, this small investment will make your expensive helmet last a lot longer by keeping the skull funk at bay. Nothing destroys helmet liners like head sweat, and that’s pretty much all we expose them to."
I typically tell people it's ill advised to be running a street car 10/10ths at a track unless you are sporting all the gear.
The point of a track day is being able to drive the car fast in a safe environment; not trying to get the last tenth of a second out of the car. If you're doing that you need at least a half cage / roll hoop and all of the drivers gear.
If you want to drive flat out then you need a fully prepped car and all the gear.
z31maniac said:Except it did mention both:
"Pair that with some SFI-rated socks, and you’re eligible for an SCCA national road race.”
"We’re also proponents of always donning a balaclava before pulling on that helmet. It serves as an additional layer of safety, as hair–including facial hair–is extremely flammable. Plus, this small investment will make your expensive helmet last a lot longer by keeping the skull funk at bay. Nothing destroys helmet liners like head sweat, and that’s pretty much all we expose them to."
Huh, I wonder how I missed that. Very well, I stand corrected. :)
In reply to kb58 :
I was at an event where one car had brake failure that resulted in it t-boning a miata at over 100. Within 6 months of that, I had a full cage and full race gear. Even if your car is 100%, stuff can still happen. I don't think any of the gear (other than helmet) should be required, but it should be strongly recommended. As @frenchyd mentioned, if track days get too expensive with required gear, people with find another outlet. Driving on the track in shorts and a t-shirt is safer than street racing (IMO).
alfadriver said:In reply to frenchyd :
Are you actually saying that your fire suppression system would have killed you while putting out a fire?
Time
I was on the opposite side of the car from being able to activate it. ( by the right rear wheel) I did the right thing, stop drop and roll.
If I'd tried to activate the system I'd have been dead.
Colin Wood said:In reply to APEowner :
There's some good advice there, and I would agree that the more of a stripped-out, high-strung race car you're driving, the more safety gear you should probably have on you.
In the end, you might look a little silly and feel overdressed for the event, but I'd rather be safe than "one of the cool kids."
But not while you work on your car. Grease and oil on your fire suit kinda defeats the purpose of a fire suit.
tomtomgt356 (Tommy) said:In reply to kb58 :
I was at an event where one car had brake failure that resulted in it t-boning a miata at over 100. Within 6 months of that, I had a full cage and full race gear. Even if your car is 100%, stuff can still happen. I don't think any of the gear (other than helmet) should be required, but it should be strongly recommended. As @frenchyd mentioned, if track days get too expensive with required gear, people with find another outlet. Driving on the track in shorts and a t-shirt is safer than street racing (IMO).
The problem is the street racers Just need an outlet. If we say Wait, do this and this plus make sure this and that conform. And so on, so on.
They'll go down the block and around the corner anyway.
We'll have a degree of responsibility for anything that happens.
I like SCCA putting on Track night. HPDE.
You do know when they had showroom stock racing the cars didn't have fuel cells, LeMons and Champ car don't require a stock gas tank to be removed. And replaced with a fuel cell. Helmets don't fail sitting in a closet and racing seat belts really should last longer than the same belt in the family sedan.
I realize we need to steadily improve things because the cars are getting faster but it shouldn't be on the back of somebody who is young and broke.
We simply have to have cheap ways for people to go to a race track rather than racing on the streets.
How about a rule like NHRA has? This fast, this much equipment and safety. Faster , you need more and better.
frenchyd said:How about a rule like NHRA has? This fast, this much equipment and safety. Faster , you need more and better.
I've always been dubious about those kinds of rules, there's nothing magic about those breakpoints as they relate to fire/etc. It also leads to people sandbagging at the end so as not to go fast enough that they'll get kicked out.
In any event, to the extent that those rules work, it's only because the course is the same everywhere.
Fire suits buy you a few precious seconds to wrangle your way out of a fully caged car with a bunch of nets and tubes in the way between you and freedom. If I can just pop my centerlock and exit via a normal door.... I'm not as concerned.
The short answer is, "No, you can't be too safe". I have been on track for over a decade and instruct with some well-known HPDE orgs these days. The first advice I give is that you shouldn't spend a dime on car mods until you have a proper full-face helmet, HANS-type device, gloves and shoes, at a minimum.
If the fuel system has been modified from the factory spec, I wear my suit, socks, balaclava, undershirt, et al. In this case, please add a well designed fire suppression system.
Another good "rule of thumb" is to make a budget for coilovers, wheels, R-spec tires, sway bars and ECU tune, then spend that amount on a helmet, HANS, gloves and shoes before buying any of the "cool" stuff. Even better, spend that amount AGAIN on instructors and coaches. :-)
I highly recommend the Simpson Hybrid-S because it can be used with factory 3-point belts, then transition with you to 6-point harnesses.
Oddly enough, I have found that safety gear tends to make my lap times shrink.
steronz said:Fire suits buy you a few precious seconds to wrangle your way out of a fully caged car with a bunch of nets and tubes in the way between you and freedom. If I can just pop my centerlock and exit via a normal door.... I'm not as concerned.
And when the drivers side of the car is fully engulfed, as it was in my friends Vette, then what?
He ended up crawling over the passenger seat to get out. He barely made it out before the car was fully engulfed.
We all have our comfort level but the problem is you're traveling at speed; not going to be popping the door open at 80 mph.
My sports racer was going 130 when it caught fire. I was able to undo everything as I brought the car to a stop. The car was actually going about 2-3 mph when I bailed out. The big thing that bought me time was the fire system.
Then again, I watched a bone-stock C8 catch fire on track and then burn for a loooong time at Barber a few days ago. So much for my "unmodded cars aren't a fire hazard" post. :-)
In reply to DaleCarter :
My friend's Vette had the stock fuel system.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Sure, I mean, what would he have done if his passenger side was also engulfed?
Certainly we can concoct a scenario where a fire suit in a street car might help. My point is, fire suits are part of the total safety package for caged race cars. They're there to buy you the 9 seconds you need to get out of the contraption. If the nature of your incident means you'd actually need 25 seconds to extract yourself, then you're going to get burnt and possibly die, and we know from history that sometimes that happens. Fire suits don't prevent 100% of injuries and/or deaths.
That's also why we have fire suppression systems. They also give you a few more seconds. And, look, people like me that say, "Meh, good enough is good enough" are never gonna win this argument, because "what's your life worth" is an impossible question. To which I say... why don't we all insist on installing fire suppression systems in the street cars we take to the track? Isn't our life worth it? Why do we let complete noobs drive instructors around in 650hp Vettes? Isn't this a stupid-ass risk?
Everyone draws a line somewhere, and jeans and a t-shirt in a street car has a pretty decent track record.
In reply to steronz :
T shirt and shorts in street cars is the norm. Yet how many of those are "raced" without people dying?
In fact the greatest risk is to innocents. Those that don't know or expect a race in their neighborhood.
Track days at least everyone is aware, sober, no pets or children wandering on the track. And they are all going in the same direction.
In addition first aide is minutes away and ready rather than sitting down for a meal or in the shower and still have a 1/2 hour to get to the scene.
You want people to attend. Get them familiar with the idea of a right place for speed.
If I were King of America If ensure that every county has one place where cars can be enjoyed in relative safety.
A straight that's an 1/8 mile long with a 1/2 mile shut down that turns into a road course with fast and slow turns
Top speed would be limited. And noise controlled.
Maybe once a week. A speed event held. Once a week a car show, etc. of course as King it would be an un funded mandate.
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