My only purpose for doing HPDE's is to get a race license. I need instructor input for this to happen. When all of the instructors leave after their last race session, it leaves no one to evaluate if I still need to be in HPDE2, or if I can move to HPDE3. I can get cheaper track time elsewhere. When progressing thru HPDE, I want track time and an education.
Salanis wrote:walterj wrote: I look for open track and no passing rules but they are rare these days. I would love for an organization to realize that the point-by is ridiculous beyond the novice run group so we could teach students proper awareness earlier, and have better results when they do graduate to solo or wheel to wheel. You don't tell people on the freeway when its OK to overtake or how they should go about it - why we teach students on a closed course under controlled conditions to do that is beyond me.I disagree. I still like to give point-bys (or at least a mirror-tap) in advanced/open groups, when there is a good opportunity. To me, it's a signal that I'm going to help another driver get around me as quickly and safely as possible. It helps them know what I'm doing. Conversely, I can get frustrated when responsibility for the pass is 100% on me, and the pass-ee doesn't feel the need to lift or go off-line at all. I end up with other drivers constantly shutting the door on my nose, because I don't have enough power to take anyone on the outside or on the straits. And if the session rules tell me that I'm not supposed to be race-stealing apexes and forcing people off-line, I'm not going to. HPDE is not racing. It's about lapping an open track.
See, the problem with that is that it gives you a false sense of control. On a freeway - at possibly greater speeds - you are forced to be aware and you know damn well that some idiot could do something unexpected at any time. You look around, visualize where people are, etc. That same level of awareness somehow goes unaddressed on a racetrack - where you need it much, much more. Especially if you intend to advance beyond HPDE 3 or 4. It prevents you from learning how to visualize, maintain momentum setting up a pass or even from really having to pay attention to anything but your own line. It kinda sets you up to belive its all about you (I don't mean YOU particularly). You drive a Miata so you know how frustrating it is to have to lift because someone isn't paying attention or doesn't give a crap. Its great for novice drivers so they have that focus but there is so much more to driving a car on the limit in traffic than a line.
I have done a lot of events that are 100% open track and its really great. Its not racing - there is no dive bombing or rubbing. There isn't any expectation that if a car is coming like the hounds of hell that you have until the next straight-away to deal, so you leave room and everyone moves along just fine.
google Group52. Get on the list and give it a try - really. It will prepare you for the day you go the Nurburgring... they only signal what THEY plan to do. Like you do on the street with turn signals.
It's been mentioned before but:
DEFINITELY organization. I like being TOLD what to do at the track. It shows that the person in charge knows what the hell he or she is talking about. Nothing more frustrating than someone in charge who tries to be everyone's buddy through being ambiguous (does that make sense?)
Bang for Buck. I haven't done an HPDE yet, but it's very high on the "to do" list. Very reasonable price, and as someone else mentioned earlier, no work assignment.
Friendly competitors / general "fun" atmosphere. I like drag racing. I berkeleying hate going to the drag strip, as the attitude is, even on a T & T night (at least at our local track) WAY different from the attitudes of COMPETITORS at an auto-x.
Friendly, knowledgeable staff. I won't name any names, but I've been to a few tracks where as soon as you drive through the gate, it feels like a Nazi occupation. No one is happy. Everyone gives short, rude answers. Conversely, Carolina Motorsports Park has the friendliest staff I've ever encountered at a track. The folks at the gate are smiling...even at 11PM. The crew is eager and anxious to do their jobs. The wrecker drivers talk to you and check out what you're driving. The guy emptying the trash cans knows where you can and cannot park.
Walterj, I totally disagree with you. Open passing should only be done by the highest experience level drivers.
People in HPDE2 or 3 simply don't have the situational awareness or car control to allow for open passing. Someone will inevitably pull off a late pass, or dive bomb someone and cars and people will get hurt.
Even in time trials we give each other point bys, simply to be polite and to let the person know which side to go by.
It's also the passing cars responsibility to go off line, the lead car should never go off line.
I agree with docwyte. The organization I run with only allows unrestricted passing in the instructor run group, and even there most will give point-bys as a courtesy.
With NASA, point-bys are progressive as you move up the ladder. HPDE1 is passing with a point-by only in designated areas. Ditto for 2. Both of these levels require instructors in the car so it's really not safe, IMO, for a driver driving fast, trying to listen to an instructor, looking for flags, etc to have to worry about being overtaken on either side of the car at this level. In 3 we can pass anywhere on the track with a point-by, which adds another entire dimension to track driving, believe me. Once you graduate to 4 or time trials, you are then pretty much "open". It's a logical progression that makes sense to me.
docwyte wrote: Walterj, I totally disagree with you. Open passing should only be done by the highest experience level drivers. People in HPDE2 or 3 simply don't have the situational awareness or car control to allow for open passing. Someone will inevitably pull off a late pass, or dive bomb someone and cars and people will get hurt. Even in time trials we give each other point bys, simply to be polite and to let the person know which side to go by. It's also the passing cars responsibility to go off line, the lead car should *never* go off line.
I hear what you are saying but... people who drove on a track for the very first time this February are racing in April with SCCA. They do not have all the tools... a lot of them suck as drivers - but they don't explode and die. They communicate and learn traffic before they learn car control. They are deficient in a different skillset than the HPDE guys but they are in a field of cars working traffic. I am advocating a place where we teach how to work in the awareness and communication (what a point-by really should be is "I see you") early like we teach that cones are not going to be there tomorrow so don't use them as turn-in markers. I think it is just fear of change (and maybe a little self preservation) that keeps us thinking that its only good enough for "top level drivers". For a further example - 8yr olds race karts in traffic with zero experience. They do not even know how to drive - the hardest part isnt teaching them not to bang wheels (other than shunting each other on the brakes) - its teaching them how not to scrub speed. They instinctively make room for each other once you explain the rules.
I am not really insane - no matter where you go after HPDE... racing, instructing... europe, the drive home... you will have to do things differently than taught at the track. That just seems counter-productive after day 1.
walterj wrote: See, the problem with that is that it gives you a false sense of control. On a freeway - at possibly greater speeds - you are forced to be aware and you know damn well that some idiot could do something unexpected at any time. You look around, visualize where people are, etc. That same level of awareness somehow goes unaddressed on a racetrack - where you need it much, much more. Especially if you intend to advance beyond HPDE 3 or 4. It prevents you from learning how to visualize, maintain momentum setting up a pass or even from really having to pay attention to anything but your own line. It kinda sets you up to belive its all about you (I don't mean YOU particularly). You drive a Miata so you know how frustrating it is to have to lift because someone isn't paying attention or doesn't give a crap. Its great for novice drivers so they have that focus but there is so much more to driving a car on the limit in traffic than a line. I have done a lot of events that are 100% open track and its really great. Its not racing - there is no dive bombing or rubbing. There isn't any expectation that if a car is coming like the hounds of hell that you have until the next straight-away to deal, so you leave room and everyone moves along just fine.
Walterj,
Nope, I think I still disagree (or maybe we agree, but are thinking of different situations). On the freeway, there are multiple lanes. If I want to pass, I move into a different lane, and I can be fairly certain they stay in their's. I also have the power to accelerate and no my car won't do weird things if I brake.
On the other hand. I'm not big on rules where passing safety is 100% the responsibility of one driver. That absolves the other guy. If I'm entering a turn, and someone has their nose past my rear bumper, I'm going to back off and yield the line. If I turn in, I'm going to spin.
I've had issues at NASA where, since the pass is 100% on the passer, I've had the other guy shut me out because there are three places at Infineon where I can out-brake them although I'm on their butt for four laps. But I won't force myself in by dive bombing or stealing their line through s-turns, because it's still HPDE and that sort of action is against the session rules. If my choice is, back off or spin the car in front of me, I'll back off and not wreck them. I figure that if I turn in on someone and spin my car against someone I knew was faster than me, that's my own fault. Both drivers share responsibility for safety.
My last HPDE with NASA was HPDE 4 and I was surrounded by LeMons drivers who didn't give a crap that I was faster then them. In download sessions, several of them commented when other people were having similar issues, that the person wanting to pass should just "make the pass". But when I have to drive my car home, I don't want actually fight with other drivers. In a non-race, I'm not going to completely dive-bomb someone into turn 11 (the hairpin) at Infineon and totally steal that apex. Conversely, they should make it possible for me to pass some other way.
If a faster driver pulls off line and sticks their nose in, the person being passed should be willing to give up the next apex for everyone's safety.
walterj wrote: For a further example - 8yr olds race karts in traffic with zero experience. They do not even know how to drive - the hardest part isnt teaching them not to bang wheels (other than shunting each other on the brakes) - its teaching them how not to scrub speed. They instinctively make room for each other once you explain the rules.
There's the thing for me. I don't like the rule "the passer is 100% responsible for a safe pass." It has to be both people. In groups that require a point-by that's not the case. The person being passed is responsible for giving a point-by and then not moving into that space until they are passed. In open-passing groups, you should be responsible for knowing when someone is passing you, and not moving into the same space they are trying to occupy.
I've had my front wheels alongside other drivers' rear wheels entering turns for multiple laps. They turned in on me. I backed off rather than make contact.
walterj said: people who drove on a track for the very first time this February are racing in April with SCCA. They do not have all the tools... a lot of them suck as drivers - but they don't explode and die.
I know SCCA does it this way but I certainly would not feel as safe on the track with that level of 'training' than I do with the NASA ladder system. Just because you can pass their license test does not mean you are the kind of person I'd want to trust next to me at 80+ mph entering a turn. Having the car control knowledge that is taught at the HPDE schools is vital to being a safe racer.
bump
I see what you're saying Walter, but I still disagree with you. Most HPDE programs are NOT prepping people to become racers.
NASA is different in that respect, that's why they allow open passing in HPDE4/TT. They see that as the last step before someone gets their competition license and will be wheel to wheel.
If SCCA allows a total noob to get a comp license, that reflects poorly on them.
Also remember, when you're wheel to wheel you're in a car with a rollcage, fire suppression, and you expect to incur some damage to your car.
In HPDE/TT, most do not have that level of safety equipment and most drive their daily driver to the track and expect to bring it home unscathed. That won't happen if you allow people to do open passing.
Like I said earlier, even in my TT group, we give point bys, or leave clearly enough room to pass. I've never had to stuff my nose in to get a pass off, the person ahead of me has always left room or been polite enough to move out of the way.
docwyte wrote: In HPDE/TT, most do not have that level of safety equipment and most drive their daily driver to the track and expect to bring it home unscathed. That won't happen if you allow people to do open passing.
These open lapping events go on all season. Some by invitation, some open to people with some experience. At the Glen, Lime Rock and others - and the safety record is excellent. What I am really trying to get at is that awareness is a skill that is extremely important and bringing people to the point where they don't need a point-by isn't as crazy as you think. If an HPDE is teaching skills that "transfer to the street" then I'd say knowing what is around you, compensating/communicating and adapting is far more important to the daily commute than being able to drive at the limit in the first place.
docwyte wrote: Like I said earlier, even in my TT group, we give point bys, or leave clearly enough room to pass. I've never had to stuff my nose in to get a pass off, the person ahead of me has always left room or been polite enough to move out of the way.
People communicate. That is what I'm suggesting... in your TT group you are not compelled to wait for permission to pass - you see an opportunity to get the job done cleanly, you have some pretty good idea that the car in front of you knows you are there. He may or may not signal some affirmation but if he leaves room and you can't fit - you go. If its not safe - you don't. If you are acting like an a$$ you get a black flag and a talk with control. Why is that such a taboo thing to teach to students? You learned it. I learned it. I'd prefer we teach it as normal behavior because the rest of the world demands it. Nowhere on the road or track is there a point-by except at some (granted a majority of) DEs.
I am officially beating a dead horse so I'll not continue to try and sell you. I respect your opinion, it is shared by many of my fellow instructors as well, but having instructed for both paradigms... I would rather drive with the guys who have the highest level of situational awareness in the car. That just isn't a priority in any curriculum where the guy in front gets to control the track until HE is ready.
Walter,
I think I halfway agree with you. I think point-bys are very valuable, especially for beginners. They let beginners/intermediates focus on car control and remove the question of "is this person in front of me a complete moron who has no idea that I'm back here". There are also lots of novices that I won't pass in a turn because I don't trust them not to freak out and stuff their car into me. When you are in an advanced group, you should have the awareness of what's on all sides of the car, and know how to go through a turn side-by-side with someone.
It is not the same as on the street where you don't use point-bys because if the guy is in the lane to my left, and we approach a turn, I know he's going to stay in that lane, and not dive across me for the apex.
In an advanced group, point bys shouldn't be required. But the people in front should still be required to provide the opportunity for faster drivers to pass them. That doesn't require giving a point by, but at some point it requires leaving space and giving up an optimal line for a while.
I don't care for NASAs "The passer is 100% responsible" philosophy, because it means drivers in front of me will refuse to give up a line unless I really steal it. I'm not going to do that in a car that only has a rollbar, and that I'm planning to drive home in.
I've been to open track days and seen some harrowing stuff. I've also been to the Glen during a club event were no less than a half dozen cars were totalled.
Open track days are an accident waiting to happen. Putting disparate skill levels out on the track together is not a good idea.
At least around here, the open track days are attended by folks that haven't done the slightest maintenance to their cars either. Old brake fluid, stock brake pads, total newb on the track, etc.
docwyte wrote: I've been to open track days and seen some harrowing stuff. I've also been to the Glen during a club event were no less than a half dozen cars were totalled.
I have been to the Glen (its my home track) for events that had more than 6 cars smashed in a 3 day weekend - they were of the regular kind with point-bys. to be fair, It is from an era when runoff was only for rain gutters. It has gotten better in the last 3 years but its still the fastest track with the least margin for error in the US. You don't see that kind of damage at Summit, VIR, Barber, NJMP, Pocono, RA, ... The Glen suffers no fools.
I don't think passing has anything to do with it, regardless. The primary source of carnage is not usually car-on-car contact or the actions of one car that cause another to crash. The vast majority (a non scientific number) are people who run out of road because of something they themselves did. It is also rare for it to be a mechanical failure (I find that one surprising myself) It is very rare at any kind of venue this side of wheel-to-wheel racing that you ever see two cars tangle.
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