Turbo concepts

The 956 and 962 ran an extra injector to cool boost.  Anyone tried that?

Also, as an anti lag concept,  how about a air injector added ahead of the turbo that gives psi inverse to throttle position?

There's a supercharger kit for the NA/NB Miata that uses a fifth injector in place of an intercooler. 

I've run a 5th injector on a couple of projects, it solved the dual problems of needing a *little* more fuel than the stock injectors could provide, and cooling the charge. In one case it helped immensely, in the other case I never got everything tuned quite right before the project went sideways for other reasons.

Docwemple said:

Also, as an anti lag concept,  how about a air injector added ahead of the turbo that gives psi inverse to throttle position?

Very old technology now.  Audi experimented with that in 1985ish.  A lot of the Group A "bang bang" antilag used something similar, to the point where street homologation models had the hardware, but the software to control it was not present.  Because it could be harsh enough to kill a turbo in a handful of miles.

This type of system lost favor after the FIA instituted a rule that teams may only have one spare turbo per car, and that turbo must be carried IN the car.  No more changing turbos daily if not more frequently.

Prodrive had a system they called a "rocket" that was really ingenious, it used air recirculation but it did so in a way that created a pressure ring of flow, so the EGTs were not 2000F+ like the early style.  Turbos were still worked hard but they lasted a lot longer.

Search for it on YouTube, there was an autocrosser who made his own "rocket" for a turbo S2000.  Absolutely no lag because the turbo was always spinning at a certain minimum speed.  IIRC his data overlays included turbo speed, manifold pressure, and pre throttle body pressure.  Ultimately he took it off because despite being made of Inconel ($!!!) it needed frequent repair.  Also the underhood heat melted a lot of stuff.

Finally, newer Porsche turbos (street cars) supposedly use a form of this, generated with VVT and throttle position and direct injection tricks.  Have not seen too much regards how it exactly works, but it sounds like they are running the cam positions such that the engine makes a lot of boost but not much power when not fully at "WOT", and cuts fuel instead of throttle during shifts.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Docwemple said:

Also, as an anti lag concept,  how about a air injector added ahead of the turbo that gives psi inverse to throttle position?

Very old technology now.  Audi experimented with that in 1985ish.  A lot of the Group A "bang bang" antilag used something similar, to the point where street homologation models had the hardware, but the software to control it was not present.  Because it could be harsh enough to kill a turbo in a handful of miles.

This type of system lost favor after the FIA instituted a rule that teams may only have one spare turbo per car, and that turbo must be carried IN the car.  No more changing turbos daily if not more frequently.

Prodrive had a system they called a "rocket" that was really ingenious, it used air recirculation but it did so in a way that created a pressure ring of flow, so the EGTs were not 2000F+ like the early style.  Turbos were still worked hard but they lasted a lot longer.

Search for it on YouTube, there was an autocrosser who made his own "rocket" for a turbo S2000.  Absolutely no lag because the turbo was always spinning at a certain minimum speed.  IIRC his data overlays included turbo speed, manifold pressure, and pre throttle body pressure.  Ultimately he took it off because despite being made of Inconel ($!!!) it needed frequent repair.  Also the underhood heat melted a lot of stuff.

 

Finally, newer Porsche turbos (street cars) supposedly use a form of this, generated with VVT and throttle position and direct injection tricks.  Have not seen too much regards how it exactly works, but it sounds like they are running the cam positions such that the engine makes a lot of boost but not much power when not fully at "WOT", and cuts fuel instead of throttle during shifts.

I'm curious if we will ever see the hybrid-type setups we see on F1 cars. Where there is the electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up while also harvesting energy. 

z31maniac said:

I'm curious if we will ever see the hybrid-type setups we see on F1 cars. Where there is the electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up while also harvesting energy. 

Unfortunately, I doubt it.  They're moving away from it in F1 because it's too expensive to keep developing it, and road car R&D is much more focused on EVs and the like these days.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

I'm curious if we will ever see the hybrid-type setups we see on F1 cars. Where there is the electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up while also harvesting energy. 

Unfortunately, I doubt it.  They're moving away from it in F1 because it's too expensive to keep developing it, and road car R&D is much more focused on EVs and the like these days.

 

I suspect you're right. Do you think it's because it's too expensive, or just because of the cost caps?

I guess those aren't mutually exclusive. 

In reply to z31maniac :

Cost plus benefit is why oems are stopping it, and that's also why f1 is dropping eboost. The energy is better applied directly to the wheels.