Turbocharged Escort GT – Track Day Pads

Ran my first TNIA event last night – wow, what a blast!  I could see this sort of event becoming a regular occurrence for me, in addition to my usual autocross events.  I gave one point-by during the first green lap of my first session, but after that spent the evening chasing down nearly every other car in the novice group :).  I think I’ll be moving up to Intermediate next time…

My current front brakes however were *not* nearly as excited as I was by the end of the evening.  As it turns out, Axxis MetalMaster/XPG pads do not have the heat tolerance needed for track days… especially with more than double the stock power, no brake ducting, & a n00b at the wheel (using a bit more brake than I probably needed, mid corner speeds were on the low side).  At the end of my second and third sessions I checked my front rotor temps and found them to be over 700 degrees F… after 1/2 lap of “cooldown” and a casual ride back to the pits.  Formerly brand new front rotors are now grooved & glazed with splotchy areas of pad material transfer.

My basic semi-metallic rockauto pads on the rear seemed to hold up just fine… temps were a more reasonable 400 deg, despite undoubtedly working harder than usual to make up for the profound brake fade & (probably) boiled fluid up front.  The general consensus seems to be that anything grippier than a street pad in the rear is just going to result in rear brake lockup… makes sense to me.

A little bit more info on the car:
2550 lbs with driver
Stock brakes, 10” front and rear rotors. Very similar to Miata brakes.
65% F / 35% R weight distribution.  Not very Miata-like.
Power is ~250-350whp depending where I set the boost level.  Ran 15 psi / ~250 whp last night.
Coilovers, swaybars, poly bushings, etc.
Currently running some older 205 Nitto NT01’s x 4, but I’ll likely be moving up to staggered 225 F/205 R Hoosier R7’s after 1-2 more events (my autocross tires).

Anyway, I’d like to get an extra set of front pads & rotors to keep on the shelf & slap on just for track days.  At a mere $19 each for the rotors, I can justify pretty much whatever set of pads make the most sense :).  I’ve received suggestions from more experienced friends for each of the following:

Porterfield R4 / R4E
Carbotech XP10 /  G-Loc R10 (apparently, pretty much the same thing)
Hawk Blues

After doing a little reading I am leaning towards the Carbotech/G-Loc pads, but I’m curious if anyone here has experience choosing track day pads for a similarly over powered & under braked nose heavy fwd car.

I run porterfield R4 in the front and R4S in the rear with SRF fluid and SS lines. 

Raybestos ST-43 is a great track pad that lasts a long time. I'd also look into adding some brake cooling.

Pics or it didn't happen.

If you'd rather avoid having to swap pads, try EBC Yellowstuff. They're more "civilized" than metallic performance pads on the street and still hold up well on the track. They're completely unbothered by any heat I can put into them with my 2300lb ~130hp car. Dr. Hess on here found that they worked well on a Lotus Esprit.

Be sure to get a good DOT4/5.1 fluid.

In reply to jstein77 :

That photo is from “trackcross” last fall… my autocross club tries to do 1-2 events a year at Thompson Speedway where they integrate a section of the road course adjacent to the skid pad into the autocross course.  Very fun and fast for autocross, but I can now safely say… nothing like a real track day!  In that photo I’m turning in towards T11a.

Waiting for the TNIA photos to go up, should be available later this week!

I run the Carbotech XP10 in front and XP8 in rear on my turbo Miata, probably driving similar to you (fast novice/slow intermediate), and they have been great.  I have 4 track days on them now, probably 20 sessions, and they still have plenty of life.  I don’t daily drive the car, but the pads are pretty squealy when driving on the roads.

ShinnyGroove said:

I run the Carbotech XP10 in front and XP8 in rear on my turbo Miata, probably driving similar to you (fast novice/slow intermediate), and they have been great.  I have 4 track days on them now, probably 20 sessions, and they still have plenty of life.  I don’t daily drive the car, but the pads are pretty squealy when driving on the roads.

+1 for using a staggered pad setup in this case. I understand you are worried about overpowering the rear but if you use those oem pads and exceed their (probably pretty low) temperature rating before you hit the limits of your front pads you are now going to start engaging the front lockup and ABS(if you have it) before using all of your rear grip. This can make the car feel like it is changing brake bias from lap to lap and is; bad for consistency, increases stopping distances, and prompts understeer. Not to mention regular ole pads can glaze over after a few good heat cycles.

Pad stagger is gonna be the easiest way to reliably adjust your front/rear bias.

You'd definitely want to use something less aggressive (maybe even just a performance street pad) for the rears than the fronts because you want to keep pedal response stable, especially being that front-heavy after weight loss. However, if you want a consistent feeling pedal after lapping all afternoon you'll want to choose something with a better temp range than stock so you aren't losing braking power in the rear after your 4th, 5th, and 6th laps on track.

Add brake ducting. And as others have said you need to keep the balance in the pads front to rear. So if you up the performance of the fronts you need to add the same amount of performance to the rears.  From your temps I think you need to add more rear bias.  You are over working the fronts.  However be carful as the closer to that edge you get the looser the car will get in trailbraking.  

Do you have abs?  If not I would consider adding brake bias adjustment.   If you do have abs turn it off and see how you do.  As I got to be a better driver I found abs to be taking away from my brake feel.  ABS is a nanny and a tool all in one that properly set up with the rest of the car can help but for a novice it can mask poor brake control and a poorly set up car. 

Oh and as a novice I am betting you are using to much brake.  Less braking means more speed.

lastly you say you were only passed by one car? And spent the rest of the event chasing down the other people.  Congratulations you just won a race no one else was participating in.  I assume this was a HPDE event?  If so focus on improving you and forget about how many people you are passing.  How many seconds did you improve over the course of the event?  That is what is important.  As that number gets smaller you are then probably ready to move up a group.  

After 7 years of lemons races and over 40k track miles we have been able to test plenty of pads.  Carbotechs always ended up giving us uneven transfer layer issues, even on very different cars and despite trying every trick that Carbotech asked of us.  

We now run Raybestos ST43 as do many others, because they are amazing.  We get  3-5 endurance races out of a set depending on the car, have zero notable rotor wear (last ones lasted 3 years and were only replaced due to cracking), they have good bite even when cold, and have never ever had any fade.  Highly recommended, we order them from Porterfield.   

Make sure to also put in some good fluid, we’ve found Motul 600 to be the right combination of high temp and reasonable price. 

Don’t run your R7s in an HPDE.  Not only will they wear out very quickly, but you will stunt your track learning by doing so.  You learn soooo much more on a street tire, and have only done one event with no instruction.   Just get one of the many good 200tw tires out there, it will be plenty of grip and you’ll learn so much more.   I really can’t understand the people I see in HPDE (especially 1-2 groups) running r compounds.  It makes no sense at all. 

Decent DOT4 fluid is definitely on the shopping list, going to see if I can find anything decent locally, and if not I’ll order some ATE or Motul.  I saw mention online that some NAPA stores carry racing-quality fluids like Wilwood… fingers crossed.  I did flush the brake system a couple days prior to the event, however I just used some good ol’ Prestone… d’oh!

Anyone know what sort of temp range a typical parts store semi-metallic street pad can withstand?  Increasing the temp range of the rear pad, if needed, to improve consistency does sound like a good idea if it becomes an issue… I will consider it!  Remember though, my rear brakes are nearly identical to 1.8 miata rear brakes, and with my weight distribution they are probably doing the same amount of work as the rear brakes on a 1750 pound w/ driver miata. With so much weight right on & ahead of the front axle, I’m sure the rear of my car gets very very light during heavy braking.  A good friend runs Hawk Blues up front and parts store pads in the rear on his STL road-racing Escort… similar weight, but half the power.  His suggestion for rear pads was “literally the cheapest pads you can get”!

I am glad to NOT have ABS on the Escort.  I determined that if I brake too hard in a straight line, my right front tire always locks first (tested this on street tires last weekend, and did my best to find the threshold but avoid locking any up on track).  I’m thinking moving my battery to the passenger side, and/or checking/adjusting my corner weights might help with that.

Yes it was a HPDE event – Track Night In America – I have no data to show if my lap times really improved at all, due to traffic… definitely felt like I was getting closer to finding “the line” & increasing my corner speeds by the end (as best I could while braking earlier and earlier etc.)   I wasn’t racing… due to encountering traffic I didn’t end up with a single clean lap, which is why I figured moving up to Intermediate would help.  The lap timing app I tried out was also not working very well & crashed/didn’t record anything for session 3.  Best time in session 2 was a 1:32.6, most laps that session were in the mid-to-high 1:30’s.

I am definitely using too much brake right now… not sure if any of you have run at Thompson… but for example I was braking before T9 the oval exit, where I was told I should just lift at the end of the straight and then brake once I’m out of the oval.  Need a bit more confidence there, before I try to pass through the gap in the concrete at ~80mph!  I could also carry a lot more speed through T3… there really is a ton of space to track-out on that corner.  I encountered several spun cars on T3 throughout the day, so I decided not to push it too hard there.

Anyway… has anyone run more than one of the pads I mentioned above, for comparison purposes?  I’ve read that the Hawk Blue’s are very on/off, which doesn’t sound very beginner friendly.  Couldn’t find a ton of info on what the Porterfields are like to drive.  The R10/XP10 are supposed to be very easy to modulate, which sounds like what I need.  I’ll take a look at those Raybestos pads as well!   I don’t think the EBC Yellowstuff will be enough… plus the brakes are so easy to swap around that I’m fine with doing so a couple times a year.

In reply to Sonic :

Sorry, I started typing my reply earlier this morning & forgot to refresh before posting :).  Thank you for the comparison between multiple pads!

Interesting info on the Carbotechs… have you seen the transfer layer problems only when endurance racing, or does it show up during shorter events as well?  

Sounds like a very strong vote for the Raybestos. Good bite, no fade, and easy to modulate are what I’m looking for primarily.  Don’t care too much about rotor life since they are so cheap for my car, but that’s certainly a nice bonus.

I wound up going to the R7’s for autocross mainly because I have some connections for inexpensive take-off’s.  With struts all around the car is obviously camber-limited, so the extra grip made a huge difference for me at autocross.  I figured using them on track where they technically belong would also make sense… but I see your point.   Once I got the NT01’s warm on track I was definitely very impressed by their grip, despite also being several-year-old take offs… they are sort of in between a 200TW street tire and an R7 I suppose?  Once these are gone I’m sitting on a used set of Toyo R888 (acquired in a package deal with some SM7’s) which sort of fit into the same category as the NT01… I could give them a try next?

In reply to therieldeal :

Reputable manufacturers should provide recommended operational temperature ranges for their pads and their fluids. I know we publish our temps for ALL of our compounds and fluids.

Looking at our data from our last big endurance race it wasn't uncommon for our 50/50% WD rwd BMW M4 to have 100°F - 150°F difference between the front and rear rotor temps. For you, it's a reasonable assumption to double that difference then selecting rear pads based on temp range.

It's possible to find race pads with high temp ranges and lower Mu values as well as cheap part store pads with high initial friction that degrades after the first time they are heat cycled. I'm wary of any product that competes on the basis of being the "cheapest" product in the category, especially with something as safety critical as brake pads.

One more tip you're gonna want to cultivate as a habit, if you are driving to the track on street pads and slapping race pads on, do a full brake bedding procedure and let the brakes cool off before really beating on them, since the two compounds may be of wildly different chemistry and each pad leaves a tiny friction layer of material on rotors you're gonna want to make sure to scrub off the old layer to avoid hot spotting, vibrations and general undesirable wear. A lot race teams will often order rotors Pre-bedded on a dynamometer with a specific pad compound to save track time switching things up on the fly.

In reply to SpartaEvolution :

Thanks for the tips!  The suggestion of "cheapest rear pads" from my friend was not so much based on cost, but more so on expected performance based on said cost.  With such a light rear, the rear brakes aren't doing a whole lot (and if they were, I'd be in trouble).  As someone mentioned earlier, this may work OK, but also may not be the most consistent several laps into a session... i'm looking at rear pad options now too.  I'd prefer something that I can leave on the car all the time (pairs OK with my front street pads) but also has the temp range to stay consistent on track. 

Honestly i'm considering upgrading my street/autocross front pads now too... the MetalMasters (which I have a couple extra sets of) are pretty good, but for another $100-200 I'm sure there's something better out there!

As far as pad swapping before a track day, I am planning to get a dedicated set of front track rotors as well (and will keep them organized so they always go back together the same way).  That way, i don't have to deal with re-bedding each time I swap them out.  Decent zinc plated rotors are all of $19 each so it's pretty easy to justify!

I’ve tried every brake pad under the sun. Never had good experience with Carbotech. They’re expensive, take forever to ship, and don’t last long on track. As someone else mentioned above they smear unevenly all over your rotors and vibrate like you’ve got a bad wheel bearing. 

I’ve been most impressed by Performance Friction PFC-01, which are a great match to street tires and lower end R-compounds. 

With gripper tires (like R7s and the C3000 full slicks I’m running now), I like Raybestos ST43 front and rear. Amazing bite and fade resistance. Last season, one set was good for 4 full race weekends (12 days!) and still had life left in them. 

For brake fluid, the Wilwood 570 works very well. It’s cheap and very easy to find; they carry it at my local NAPA for example. If you want to cork-sniff, order some Prospeed RS683 or Castrol SRF. In my experience, those two are in a league of their own. But you probably don’t need to spend the money on one of those two top-tier fluids. Wilwood 570 is just as good as any other supposedly “premium” racing brake fluid short of SRF and RS683. 

In reply to LanEvo :

PFC makes some fantastic stuff, bit sadly nothing for the BG chassis. 

ST43s are $243 dollars for the front versus $155ish for the porterfields.

Get the porterfields and run better fluid, Fab up some ducting and get SS lines with the savings. Don't over think this. 

I'm back!

So in the end I wound up with G-Loc R10 up front, and i left the same semi-metallic parts store pads on the rear.  I upgraded to DOT4 fluid.  I just did my first full track day & time trial, spent time with an instructor, etc.  I was running ZII Star Specs x 4, as unfortunately I corded one of my NT01's.  Good news... my brake fade issues are cured!

Bad news... from the beginning of each session to the end (all brake temps) I was fighting to keep the rear end behind me in the two heavy braking zones.  After every session people were coming up to me to say "hey did you know you're locking up your rear brakes?"  YES. Yes. I was acutely aware of this!  I had to brake too early, for too long, always dead straight, and be extremely conscientious of my brake pressure.  Now I understand why some early ABS cars were rear-ABS only... might have helped me out there!

Anyway... I'm looking for a different rear pad that will give me less bite and torque, yet stay consistent through a 20-30 min session.  I'm thinking perhaps a ceramic pad of some sort, intended for "extra long life" might be the ticket?  I've reached out to G-loc to see if they have any suggestions as well.

The other option of course is to plumb in a rear bias adjuster, but I would like that to be my last resort.  It would require replumbing the entire car due to the cross-routed braking system.

since you've got G-Loc's on the front, it's probably best to get G-Loc R8's set for the back... I'll guess that's what they'll recommend as well.  Should have similar characteristics to the fronts, just a lower total mu and maximum temperature.  But, being in the rear of a fwd car, it should be fine.  A similar setup has worked "reasonably well" on my TL.

In reply to therieldeal :

I had the same issue with an ABS deleted turbo Miata (rear bias). A set Hawk DTC 60's in front with DTC 30's out back calmed things down nicely.

I don't know the G-Loc line, but suggest you go for a high torque/high initial bite pad in front with a low torque pad in the rear, both with ~1,000 F temp ratings. Here's the Hawk page for reference:

http://www.hawkperformance.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Hawk_RoadRace_Bro_2013_REV%20%281%29.pdf

Install brake ducts as well, they'll make a big difference. Stick with same brand front & rear track pads & ditch any street/ceramic type stuff, they'll smear your rotors when they get overheated and exacerbate your problems.

Good Luck!

I'd recommend either Carbotech or GLOC R10 Front/R8 Rear or the XP10 Front/XP8 Rear's. 

Stoptech Sport pads are my go-to recommendation for an HPDE pad.  If I'm lazy, I can actually just leave them on the car for street duty too, and they don't squeak or kill my rotors.  They don't melt, even on my heavy cars using 200 treadwear tires on high-speed track.  Bite and stopping power are not much more than stock, though.  They don't cost me nearly what a dedicated track pad does.

I use PFC-08s when I want more brake torque or I'm using tires under 200 treadwear.  They cost me more than I would like, but they last more than the softer compounds out there.  Problem is, I can't really run them in the rain without getting uneven transfer and pulsing.  I can hammer them for a lap when it's dry again and be back to normal, but that doesn't work when I'm out for a couple days of steady wet weather.  Then I just give up and start the weekend with Stoptechs.

Sticky tires and something like a PFC-01 or 11 are just dreamy, awesome, but so expensive.  I run through them fast, it's impossible to refrain from braking late as hell once I have that much stopping torque on tap.  They last half (or less) the time I get from 08's.  I can't afford to use the 01s very often, unless the car is pretty light.  Also I can have problems maintaining oil pressure in the brake zone at some point, depending on the oil pan design.

JBasham said:

Stoptech Sport pads are my go-to recommendation for an HPDE pad.  If I'm lazy, I can actually just leave them on the car for street duty too, and they don't squeak or kill my rotors.  They don't melt, even on my heavy cars using 200 treadwear tires on high-speed track.  Bite and stopping power are not much more than stock, though.  They don't cost me nearly what a dedicated track pad does.

Interesting, sounds like it could be a less sharp and bitey alternative to EBC Yellowstuff. How's the dust?

My ZX2SR worked fine with Hawk SP+(?) pads with A7's.   

I always stayed off the brakes as much as possible,  just a quick stab to slow then off.

One more thought/question… could excessive front shock compression damping (approximately 2.0 critical) contribute significantly to rear brake lockup?  Trying to decide if it’s worth testing again with revised dampers (aiming for ~0.65 critical) before I start messing with the brake bias.  The new dampers were supposed to be in before this past weekend’s track day, but they didn’t arrive in time.

I too suspect that Gloc will suggest R8's for the rear - we'll see.

Iceracer - at autocross that's about how I drive it, and it works well... but then again there's not all that much speed that needs scrubbing :).  A little extra rear brake is probably actually beneficial there for rotation, as I can get back on the gas again right away to catch the car.  On track trying to scrub 50-100mph quickly is where I'm running into issues (T1 and T4 at Thompson Speedway).