used RX8 buying advice

I'm planning on picking up a "big boy" car sometime soon...the STS miata isn't cutting it as a daily driver for much longer. looking for something competitive in Stock class, but that also would have a place to play whenever that window closes...but DD'ing an ST-prepped car has convinced me that as long as the car pulls double duty, i'd prefer to stay in Stock.

hardtop, preferably w/ a backseat so that it can double as an occasional/emergency transport for a kid (which is not yet on its way). wife has perfectly good family-type wheels. don't want FWD. preferably under $16k.

so i realized my priorities appeared to whittle my list of candidates to pretty much the RX8 and E36 M3, although the M3 is old and not that competitive. other suggestions are welcome, however. the (self-imposed) backseat and price requirements eliminated the S2000, 370Z and Z06, even though gas and insurance(!!) appear to be cheaper for the Vette.

any advice? i know about the cars on paper, but have very limited (i.e., two autoX fun runs and one test drive) time behind the wheel. i drove what seemed to be a decent one yesterday ('04 Sport, 51k, $13k/obo).

anything to look out for that could signal a bigger issue?

Stay away from the ones with Rotary engines.

Yeah, insurance killed my dream of the RX8 back when I was looking in '06. I had my agent give me quotes on all the cars that I was considering, along with a few pipe dreams just to see the numbers. The RX8 was the most by a good margin, more than a WRX, Z06, S2000, M3, even an Elise! At 25, it would have cost me about $3000 a year. It was almost even with the payments. I still can't figure out why this is the case, especially now that they are WELL under your price limit for an early one. When I got those quotes, the RX8 was the slowest car of the bunch, one of the cheapest, and one of the only 4-doors.

WRX

After auto-xing all day last weekend, placing 3rd in class (different classing than you 'muricans), then driving 2000km of northern Michigan roads over 2 days (including some "unassumed" roads) in relative comfort, I have to say the M3 is one heck of an all-around vehicle.

....If that's what you're looking for.

A WRX is another one of those great all-rounders.... but I've yet to drive one.

Nathan

RX8 sounds like a good bet. That is a fun driving car. Won't win drag races but it is a fun motor, good shifting trans, very nice well balanced chassis, great suspension.

I believe Mazda extended the warranty on the motor also. They made changes within the last year or two to the Oil Metering Pump system.

The e46 330 might be an option for you also. I actually like the ergo on the e46 much better than the e36 and power in nearly identical. I don't think they are particularly competitive in Stock though.

WRX might be an option too if you like driving them. I prefer driving the 2 cars above to the WRX.

I think the RX8 is homely, to put it lightly.

That said, i WILL own one, one day. My mind was blown when i drove one. It all feels so right. Ergonomics, the connected-feeling of the steering, how tossable it was, and i actually really like the motor. It never felt like it was lacking in power. More would be better, of course, but i wasn't pounding on the wheel in frustration.

I say go drive one, then make your decision.

amg_rx7 wrote: Won't win drag races but it is a fun motor, good shifting trans, very nice well balanced chassis, great suspension.

I agree with everything except the motor part. IMO it really lets the car down. If Mazda had gone with their 2.3L MZR instead they'd have a sure fire hit.

That said everything else about the car is good. Handling, steering, shifter, etc are all very, very good. Add an LS1 it would be perfect :)

If you don't have a kid on the way yet, I'd get the Z06. A front seat will do for emergency child transport and I'm betting you can turn the passenger airbag off.

Soma007 wrote: Add an LS1 it would be perfect :)

This could be said for a lot of cars.

I too was looking to get one, then began researching them. bad mileage, engine problems and all sorts of expensive issues.... No thanks.

Read up on Rx8 forums.

thanks for the input. good point on the Z. have to check into the airbag thing.

i love the way the 8 looks, except for the garish taillights. insurance wasn't bad (32yo married homeowner); liability is generally constant among the various cars (except the S2k); it's collision coverage that pumps the RX-8 over the chevy.

i love WRXs, but they are zero fun in Stock class.

How much do early G35s go for? 350Z+back seat FTW?

The_Jed wrote: WRX

Make sure you start a new savings account for the tickets, and jail bail outs. Those things are stupid quick and it will creep up on you, especially on the interstate. Start modifying it and the roads become a whole lot shorter. just my .02 from a few test drives and riding in a modded car. But that being said I gotta say I laugh every time I get to ride in one.

Spinout007 wrote:

The_Jed wrote: WRX

Start modifying it and the roads become a whole lot shorter.

Curbs on an on ramp? Who the heck puts curbs on an on ramp?

I just picked an RX8 up for pretty much the same reason. I wanted a "grown up" car that could also be an occasional track day car.

My advice is to hold out for a very pampered low mileage car. They're readily available, down here at least. I paid $14k for an '05 with 21k. I may have been able to get it a little cheaper, but it was exactly the color/option combo I wanted and the previous owner was less than 5 miles from my house. I also spent some time with the owner and figured out that he was a Skip Barber graduate who used it as a weekend car and never took it to an autocross or track day. I also had lots of evidence of proper maintenance. My time in finding another one similarly cared for would be worth more than any premium I paid, never mind the proximity.

The mileage sucks, but not as bad as some people would have you believe. I've only had mine a couple of months and got 18 on my first tank driving like a loon and 19 on my second tank which was all in town and included a lot of waiting in the car with the engine (AC) running (sleeping kids) while my wife picked up one thing here and another there. I've not taken it on a road trip yet, but based on my in town mileage, I fully expect to see the 24 it was rated under the old system.

I had an E36 M3, and while it was an absolute blast to drive and an excellent double-duty car, the thing was a money pit. I picked what I thought was a good, low-mileage example, only to have to put a bunch of money into rubber suspension parts that would last a lot longer on a Japanese or American car. My car also had a lot of electrical gremlins, and I can't stand letting those things go (power window regulators, malfunctioning sensors, etc.)

Those who say the engine lets the car down miss the point of a rotary. If you're looking for low-end torque (or even high end torque) look elsewhere. The engine really isn't at home unless you can get it on a road course and wind it up to 9k. I like it in that it has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Keep the revs down and its perfectly drivable in town. (Unlike my M3, which I felt like I was always having to hold back in town.) Unwind it, and it's a beast. Sure there may be other cars that are faster, but someone always has something faster. I care more about how much fun I'm having than how fast I'm going in absolute terms.

Insurance isn't a big deal. My RX8 is cheaper than my wife's 6, although I get a defensive driving credit and drive significantly fewer miles.

thanks, billy. one thing i'm noticing is that the Sport (cloth interior, non-sunroof) trim level is not very common. i definitely don't want a sunroof model b/c there is no way (for me) to fit comfortably w/ a helmet.

i'm perfectly comfortable w/ the engine's characteristics, quirks, and maintenance needs (and anyway, the thing feels like a rocket after my '02 protege and '91 miata).

there is a certified '05 in the right trim coming in to a dealership near me. i'd probably rather have good maintenance records, but lacking those, the certified powertrain warranty isn't a bad thing to have, esp b/c it goes beyond the 100k core engine warranty they all have.

I'll have to drive one of the RX8's one day.... I do think they're great cars, and very different than the M3. Regarding the e36 M3, I haven't had it long enough to say "for sure", but so far it's been dead reliable, if a little "fussy" with the CEL. It's definitely a car for someone who does the work themselves, as parts aren't that unreasonable, but there seems to be a BMW tax on labour. Mine cost $5k though, and I expected a few things to need tending. I wouldn't feel the same if I paid 10-13k.

27mpg average since I purchased it last December.... fuel mileage matters to me a fair bit simply due to the mileage I put on (90 miles daily).

Let us know how the purchase goes!

Nathan

You know, with a WRX and an AccessPort, you could run a Stage 1 tune around town, and flip it back to stock for an autox.

A weird idea, but there you go!

I like RX-8s. If they made a hatchback version (but now we're getting silly), I'd probably have one.

I've driven my friend's 8 at a few autocrosses.

The avg. speed of each event is slightly too fast to stay in 1st gear, so I ended up putting around in 2nd at a much lower RPM.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great handling car, but unless you're above 6k rpm it has very little power (look up a stock dyno for a RX-8!); it was completely infuriating to autocross because of the complete lack of power being "stuck" in 2nd gear...

Buzz Killington wrote: thanks, billy. one thing i'm noticing is that the Sport (cloth interior, non-sunroof) trim level is not very common. i definitely don't want a sunroof model b/c there is no way (for me) to fit comfortably w/ a helmet.

I've got exactly the same issue. That's why I didn't push the issue when I found one near me. I see Sports pretty regularly, but the sunroof cars (both Touring and Grand Touring) seem to be more common around here.

Buzz Killington wrote: there is a certified '05 in the right trim coming in to a dealership near me. i'd probably rather have good maintenance records, but lacking those, the certified powertrain warranty isn't a bad thing to have, esp b/c it goes beyond the 100k core engine warranty they all have.

I've never seen a certified RX8. What are they doing on the engine warranty?

the certified warranty covers the whole power/drivetrain...the whole engine, the trans, diff, etc. 7 yrs/100k, plus a B2B for 3 months/3000 miles...nice for those little problems or outstanding TSBs.

the warranty mazda put out on the RX8 engines covers only "core" engine components (rotors, seals, etc).

paul wrote: I've driven my friend's 8 at a few autocrosses. The avg. speed of each event is slightly too fast to stay in 1st gear, so I ended up putting around in 2nd at a much lower RPM. Don't get me wrong, it's a great handling car, but unless you're above 6k rpm it has very little power (look up a stock dyno for a RX-8!); it was completely infuriating to autocross because of the complete lack of power being "stuck" in 2nd gear...

fortunately, we have pretty large lots in my region...the question of shifting to third is not uncommon, and there is plnety of time over 6k in 2nd.

besides, if it was that terrible, it wouldn't have dominated its class for a few years now.

Never meet your heroes...

I really like the concept of the RX-8. Light, nimble, four useful seats, magic doritos, and a 6-speed for better mileage! The poor reality is that there's NO headroom for anybody over 5'7" let alone a helmet. The seats are incredible but the power seats eat up even more vertical room. The engine is underpowered with any passengers and the 6th gear ratio is the same as 5th in an RX-7 so the mileage still blows.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the car, and as an RX-7 owner and certified rotor-head I would love to own one, but until prices hit absolute rock-bottom I just don't care. I'm too damn tall (and I'm short!) to fit and the lack of power was disappointing. My 1st-Gen will blow one out of the water, I've beaten the stock class RX-8's at every SCCA AutoX this year.

Oh yeah, the insurance really is that bad. I don't understand that part. Depends on who you go with though, so make some calls.

Just get a FD RX7 and have the cheapest super-car ever built, but go for one with a good history and either a LSX conversion or at least a single turbo conversion....

Try this out for size

http://www.v8rx7forum.com/cars-sale/55794-93-unfinished-ls1-rx7-project-cobra-diff-etc-former-ca-car-currently-il.html

P71 wrote: The poor reality is that there's *NO* headroom for anybody over 5'7" let alone a helmet.

I call male bovine excrement. I'm 6'1", and I fit with a helmet, although not in a sunroof car. I have longer legs than average, but I'm hardly a freak. I actually drive with the seat several clicks forward and can still heel-toe the car.

P71 wrote: The engine is underpowered with any passengers....

I disagree. It's only 2hp down on the E36 M3, which weighed more. (It's appreciably down on torque, but you said power.) Moreover, the power to weight ratio is better than said E36 M3, a Miata, or an E30, which are practially the default answers around here. I've never driven a car that more power would hurt, but the RX8 has plenty. Sure there are cars with more, but that's not the point.

P71 wrote: ... and the 6th gear ratio is the same as 5th in an RX-7 so the mileage still blows.

I wouldn't mind a slightly taller 6th gear. What I'd really like is that with a taller rear, but then you'd have even more people bitching that its underpowered because it can't do 0-60 in sub-7 seconds.

P71 wrote: Oh yeah, the insurance really is that bad.

This is not consistent with my experience. I can't speak to yours.

I'm not saying the car is perfect. No car is. Mazda's sales numbers on the RX8 are testament to the fact that there are better cars for most people, including most sports car buyers. However, as noted above, many of the common criticisms are either exaggerations, misunderstandings of the nature of the car and/or engine, or simply false.