Used SUV's. LR4 Vs 4Runner.

TGMF said:

Having turned wrenches on Lexus vehicles for more years than I care, I really wanted a 4 runner,  as the reliability is legendary.  I'd have settled quite happily for a GX, except I really wanted that roll down window and a hatch, not a barn door.  I searched for years for a clean used 4 runner,  but found the same sky high pricing. Make the crazy resale work for you, rather than against. Best just to buy new, drive it 100k plus, and when it comes time to sell, you'll actually come out ahead compared to most everything else.

I wasn't able to spend 40k on a new ride, so I ended up with a Xterra, which was promptly swapped for a Armada because I needed more space for the  baby seats. Not as reliable as the Toyota, and terrible resale...which worked out well for me when I purchased.  

 

Holy crap how big are your baby seats!?  Funny how when I was in high school our family had no problem with an 85 Jetta.  I was 6'2" and my brother was probably 5'8'" at the time.  We could go on road trips with all four of us just fine.  Now it seems everyone needs a Suburban or other ginormous vehicle if they have a baby.

In reply to mr2s2000elise :

Ive got a 13 Platinum reserve, so old titan based. Had it for coming up on 2 years. Cracked manifolds aside, (which I've fixed with long tubes and a tune)  its been awesome. Im at 112k miles.   I've put about 30k of those on.   Not sure why people seem to hate on them.  I did need a wheel bearing...and a micro switch on the rear hatch.

I like it enough I'd buy another.

Parker: 

Reverse facing baby seats are ginormous. You'd have to take the front seat out to get it in a 85 Jetta. Belive me, I'd love to have a small sedan again. Im 6'4 and all limbs, so pretty much anything I drive or sit in has to have the seat all the way back. My vehicle choices were Sienna, Tundra, Sequioa,  GM  (burban/escallade)  or the Armada, where there is room to spare. In anything smaller, I'm folded like a pretzel. I physically could not get in the Xterra on the passenger side with the baby seat installed.   Even my 5'4 wife was cramped with her knees almost touching the dash. My 3 year old is forward facing in a more upright seat, that buys some realestate, but till my 1 year old is at that stage, im screwed into a huge vehicle.  I also tow a large camper these days, so there's that to consider. 

The Toyota resale is crazy but like someone else said make it work for you.

I went to college with a guy who saw an ad for a new Tacoma for ~14k in the paper. It was a 2wd 4 cyl manual with extended cab. He bought it and drove it for a few years put 90k miles on it and then traded it in for the same amount he paid for it new.

Rust free with only 103k miles and can probably be had for $4,000

$6,000

In reply to John Welsh :

My brain should be screaming NO!, but instead I’m heading off to Wikipedia now

THose Pajeros are good. Watch for the head gasket issues

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Here... 

https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/forums/mitsubishi.94/

All the good Pajero info seems to come out of Aus where they just stopped selling in 2018

Overpriced but local to you... 

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?zip=43551&showNegotiable=true&sourceContext=carGurusHomePage_false_0&distance=500&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d427#listing=244809389

I've been happy with mine, The Sumo Wrestler

If your needs are more for modern conveniences, everyday mall crawling and 8.600 towing capacity then I would seriously look at an off-rental Nissan Armada.  This can be as easy as opening the Enterprise Car Sales or Hertz too

OK, so this thread has taken a delightful turn to left field with the PAjaro.  So let's de-rail it further.  It's doubtful people will remember, but this isn't the first time I've asked SUV questions, here was the main one, although I also asked about Disco II"s and WK Grand Cherokee SRT8's

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/age-vs-mileage-where-is-the-sweet-spot/152638/page1/

So, actual needs and wants!  I need something to act as a DD and that can tow.  Not a car, but a pop-up camper.  The camper is on the larger, but lighter side.  It's only 2K Lb's empty.  Obviously needs to be able to seat 5, but a third row would be a great bonus as sometimes we take my eldest and grandson, and or my mom with us.  We tend to do a half dozen trips a year minimum, with at least one, sometimes two being over 1,000 miles to Florida, Colorado, Yellowstone etc.  So for trips like that It's got to have some power/torque as I expect to be able to cruise at 70-75 without breaking a sweat.  

I also like 'real' SUV's rather than cross overs with some odd exceptions.  I've always loved Land Rovers as you'll see if you look at various questions I've asked.  If I'm buying something newish (less than 5 years old) I would be happy spending $20K, If I were getting something older like the Mister-Bitchie mentioned above, I wouldn't want to spend more than $5K or so.  I also like older Land Cruisers, but they make 4Runners look cheap.  I already have four other cars so it needs to be either new enough to be reliable (I count newish LR4's in this category) or if it's old, reliable as gravity and not worn out.  

So, things I like in, other than the LR4 being top, no particular order:

• LR4
• N280 4Runner
• N180 4Runner
• V60 MisterBitchie Motero - New add
• J100 LAnd Cruiser

Mega left turn

• 06-14 V8 XC90

Hyper Mega Left turn 

• 02-07 XC70 - They can tow 3,300lb's, I have an S60 and it's supremely comfortable.

So, have at it, what's the good, the bad and the insane.  Is there such a thing as an affordable J100 Land Cruiser?  Is it worth upping the budget to $25-30K for a low mileage TRD 4 Runner or newish SR5?  What's the real skinny on the LR4 reliability?  Am I crazy for even having the XC70 on my list?  HAs anyone seen a mint LaForza recently?

Plenty of 100 series affordable LC out there. Get the one with the 5Spd 

Keep in mind that reliability reports come from passionate owners.

A parable that relates:  If you look up crime reports by neighborhood in Los Angeles, Bel Air and Beverly Hills have a higher crime rate than East LA or Compton.  In Bel Air, they call the police if a brown person walks down the street.  In East LA, you could have 6 drive-bys and no one calls the police.

If you're passionate about LRs (which I know you are) then get one, but to me this question is kinda like asking, "should I build my house out of brick or tissue paper?"  Rover made some good vehicles... much like Mercedes has some fantastic cars and some that are made of glass.  Take your chances and roll the dice, but for me this is a no brainer.  Arguably the most reliable brand ever put on the road with stupid cheap parts, or one of the least reliable brands on the road with expensive parts

Like I said, some of them are fine.  Much like a W210 or W124 is a good bet with Mercedes, but a brand new S63 with radiators that like to leak and replacements costing $1600... not so good.

This is not hard data, this is just from my years running import repair shops.  The number of LR4s that came in that were wasted at 40k was insane.  Once customers got wind of how much it would cost to repair, they frequently just handed us the title and walked away.  In 7 years we had 5 LRs and Discos that we patched up and sold for pennies.

But methinks you'll end up with an LR4 anyway :)

mr2s2000elise said:

Plenty of 100 series affordable LC out there. Get the one with the 5Spd 

Why 5 speed?  I prefer auto for DD’s, SUV’s and especially towing. Also what do you define as affordable from age, mileage and condition?

In reply to Curtis :

thx btw  

Re: LR3 and LR4. These trucks are markedly better to own than the prior Discoveries. Land Rover renamed them to "LRx" in the U.S. market because the stigma was that bad with the Discovery model name.

The LR3 and LR4 were built with Ford money as part of Premier Automotive Group, and had been kinda-sorta designed in that brief time that BMW owned Land Rover in the mid-late 90s. Ford's PAG encompassed Jag, LR, Volvo, Aston, etc. The trucks use pretty typical Bosch electronics like a BMW, and you will find various parts underhood stamped with "FoMoCo."

The gearboxes are by ZF. Engines are from Jaguar - the LR3 uses the Jag 4.4L and the LR4 gets the updated Jag 5.0L. The 4.4 is allegedly very sturdy. The 5.0 added direct injection, and early model years can have issues with timing chain guides, due to specified oil change intervals being too long. 

I owned a 2010 Range Rover (full size) with a supercharged variant of the 5.0, and it was an incredible truck. They are not all that scary to own. The LR3/4 and FFRR (full fat Range Rover) L322 chassis are pretty similar and they are all pretty reliable compared to the older Discos and P38 RRs.

As somone else said, IIDTool is your friend for diagnostics and maintenance that requires computer intervention. The air suspension is reliable on all of the above-mentioned models, and if something does go pop, Arnott and Suncore make drop-in replacement parts that are far cheaper than OEM.

Go get 'em.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

These are the words I wanted to hear 

We did the same dance in January 2017 for a vehicle for my wife. Wanted a used newer 4Runner for under $20k and less than 100k miles. Couldn’t find one that wasn’t way over mileage requirement or way over price. Found multiple GX460s in the price range with less miles than the 4Runner, V8 instead of V6, and with the “occasional” use 3rd row seats.  I say occasional cause unless you are under 9 a long ride back there won’t be comfortable.  Things we didn’t really like barn door, and the big L badge.

Adrian_Thompson said:

mr2s2000elise said:

Plenty of 100 series affordable LC out there. Get the one with the 5Spd 

Why 5 speed?  I prefer auto for DD’s, SUV’s and especially towing. Also what do you define as affordable from age, mileage and condition?

In the US, no 100 comes with manual. 100 comes in 4spd auto vs 5 speed auto. I was recommending the 5spd 

Get the LR. You will be happier 

In reply to Curtis :

Curtis, what were the issues with these wasted 40k mile trucks?  Real issues or nickel and dime stuff that kills cars for regular folks?  Remember, I’m your average GRMer in that other than accident repair I’ve never ever paid for work on my cars in my life.  I do everything myself now with the aid of GRM!

Adrian_Thompson said:

mr2s2000elise said:

Plenty of 100 series affordable LC out there. Get the one with the 5Spd 

Why 5 speed?  I prefer auto for DD’s, SUV’s and especially towing. Also what do you define as affordable from age, mileage and condition?

Also, where are the affordable J100 Land Cruisers. I can’t find anything under 100K miles for even close to $10k. That’s a lot for a 12-20 year old vehicle over 100k miles. 

Adrian_Thompson said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

These are the words I wanted to hear 

And more objective than my lumping all Rovers in with Disco IIs

Adrian_Thompson said:

In reply to Curtis :

Curtis, what were the issues with these wasted 40k mile trucks?  Real issues or nickel and dime stuff that kills cars for regular folks?  Remember, I’m your average GRMer in that other than accident repair I’ve never ever paid for work on my cars in my life.  I do everything myself now with the aid of GRM!

 

Usually Jatco transmission failures.  We had a Disco at 43k that the 2.5L had lost all compression in two cylinders and the Jatco fried taking one of the bands and accordioning it against the case (which broke the case).  It was going to be a $6000 repair.  He signed the title, we slapped junkyard units in it, spent a week trying to get the turn signals and starter to work, and ended up selling it for $1400 and got sued for $15,000 by the buyer (which I think we settled for the purchase price).  Eventually we refused to work on them.

Constant electrical gremlins, weak transmissions, engines from the 60s... they were comically junk.

As Brake_L8 said, newer ones are better, but its all perspective.  To me, comparing a Toyota to a Rover is like comparing having sex with Ariana Grande to a cell phone picture of Delta Burke naked.  No comparison.  I own a bunch of old American Iron from the 60s.  They aren't reliable, but I love them so I keep buying and fixing them.  I don't knock your love for LRs and fully support your buying one if it's what you want, I'm just providing my opinion.

Curtis said:

To me, comparing a Toyota to a Rover is like comparing having sex with Ariana Grande to a cell phone picture of Delta Burke naked.  No comparison.  

I'm dead. 

In reply to Curtis :

Ah, you’re talking about D I and II’s there. They are still based on the L38 RR which. The DIII and DIV are totally different. How bad were they?

Anyone who hasn't actually owned a Ford-era Land Rover should not speak to that era of reliability and overall ownership. The earlier LRs were lovable heaps (and everyone knows it), but spreading of misinformation helps no one :-) I found the Ford-era LRs to be BMW-like in their ownership prowess. Absolutely not Toyota-level of ownership, but worth it if you're a little nuts.

Some of the comments about unreliable land Rover's are clearly about the Disco era. You cannot compare the later Ford based versions to the earlier British ones. Apples to oranges.

The LR3 and 4 are very home mechanic friendly by the way. They sell these things to guys living in mud huts in Africa. Most of the interior snaps together and you can pull the entire dash apart with a Phillips screwdriver. They are only unreliable in that there is just plain more to go wrong. If you want more reliable get something more basic. My kid paid $200.00 for an old Mazda B3000 and it is bulletproof. But it also has roll up Windows and two wheel drive. I kind of like my adjustable air ride, hill descent, heated windows, 500 watt sound system and assorted other bling, and I will take a chance that some of this stuff might require some work from me to keep operational.

There are a LOT of vehicles that can do what you want done- think that's your problem.

The Mercedes Benz SUVs will probably be as nice as the Land Rover 4 and also depreciate like crazy. A newer GMC Yukon is actually a pretty nice place to be, and meets all of your requirements. 4Runners are generally reliable and hold their value well, but don't generally have third row seating. Monteros are very under-rated and cheap.

All that said:

It sounds like you want a Land Rover. Get the Land Rover- you have  Penfold, Danger Mouse and the Union Jack in your avatar. Get the Land Rover, already.

If you don't get a Land Rover, get a Range Rover. FOR THE QUEEN!