Volve 240 sedan vs Volvo 740 sedan vs CVPI for rallycross?

MrChaos said:

irish44j said:

Just throwing it out there, but for SR on a low budget, e36 3-series WILL be competitive, and there's plenty of ratty ones out there for a couple grand. 

Volvo 240 is cool though, so if you're going with your original list, that's my pick even though it won't win. And if you don't care about winning, bonus points for getting a 240 WAGON because that's like 10x as cool in rallycross.

i know I wont win because the 2nd fastest raw times for the events are usually the SR 4th gen camaro

Good driver, bad car, i think.  A Camaro is a horrible idea for the same reasons the P71 is bad.

In reply to Knurled. :

With the elevation change and length of the course the Camaro has a distinct hp and torque advantage vs the Miatas with most of the layouts.

https://youtu.be/serm3osJdA4

In reply to MrChaos :

I'm assuming none of your Miatas have forced induction then?  :)

MrChaos said:

irish44j said:

Just throwing it out there, but for SR on a low budget, e36 3-series WILL be competitive, and there's plenty of ratty ones out there for a couple grand. 

Volvo 240 is cool though, so if you're going with your original list, that's my pick even though it won't win. And if you don't care about winning, bonus points for getting a 240 WAGON because that's like 10x as cool in rallycross.

i know I wont win because the 2nd fastest raw times for the events are usually the SR 4th gen camaro

I mean, maybe he's an amazing driver, but a Camaro would get annihilated in raw times overall here in DC. It could maybe do ok in our SR class, but only because our SR class is.....a couple stock volvos and an M10 (100hp) e30 and maybe one MIata. A stock e36 or e30 or Miata should typically beat a stock Camaro, drivers being equal....unless it's a giant, wide-open course with nothing tight.

IDK, not sure how far you are from our next event at Panthera training center in W.VA., but you should run up here - our events usually have 25-30 RWD cars entered, and most of MR class is nationally- or at least divisionally-competitive. 

MrChaos said:

In reply to Knurled. :

With the elevation change and length of the course the Camaro has a distinct hp and torque advantage vs the Miatas with most of the layouts.

https://youtu.be/serm3osJdA4

Does ETRSCCA post their rallycross results anywhere? This could be easily determined if there are any people that run there that have run against other people we collectively know, and we can do indirect comparison.

In reply to irish44j :

The problem with that is, I beat two National Champions at our first 2018 rallycross by %ridiculous and got beat in turn by Paul Eddleston (and, dammit, he beat me by 5.5 seconds and I had three cones...)

We haven't rallycrossed for like six months, and the course set up NEEDED a handbrake to navigate...   it was so tight that I hit an outside cone while pivoting around an inside cone.  Was so glad that the RX-7 was ready to do, because I was tempted to just run teh R and I know it would have required 3 point turns in at least two places on the course.

Here are the results of the 2 for this year that have results from teh ETRSCCA Rallycross facebook page.
#1

And number 2 where they ran a really long course

And they just posted the results for last weekends

If you notice FTD was the same all 3 times. He was FTD at every event last year as well and i believe he also runs Tennessee Valley SCCA as well

Knurled. said:

In reply to irish44j :

 

The problem with that is, I beat two National Champions at our first 2018 rallycross by %ridiculous and got beat in turn by Paul Eddleston (and, dammit, he beat me by 5.5 seconds and I had three cones...)

 

We haven't rallycrossed for like six months, and the course set up NEEDED a handbrake to navigate...   it was so tight that I hit an outside cone while pivoting around an inside cone.  Was so glad that the RX-7 was ready to do, because I was tempted to just run teh R and I know it would have required 3 point turns in at least two places on the course.

 

Yeah, obviously not a flawless way, but at least gives an idea.But if you take a good amount of results, you can at least get an idea of who is similar in speed and consistency. In DC there are a good 6-7 cars in MR that can all win on any given day and have beaten me here and there - and I've beaten two national champs (Evan and England) as well as you - but any of you can beat me on any given day as well. I mean, even the fast guys make big mistakes (remember GLDivs a few years ago when I spun a 360 on my first run and ended up losing by 1 second? Or England picking up 5 cones on a single run at East Coasts last year, and still only losing by a couple seconds to Vaughn - and still beat me!), but overall the fast guys are faster, and the slow guys are slower no matter the course.

MrChaos said:

If you notice FTD was the same all 3 times. He was FTD at every event last year as well and i believe he also runs Tennessee Valley SCCA as well

So much for my idea lol....I don't recognize a single name in that entry (after 7 years of rallycrossing all over the east coast, figured I would but I guess not~!), so can't compare anyone to anyone lol. I don't see him in any TennValley results for this year, but that would be a good indicator since Leon Drake runs there, and he is definitely fast. Oh well.

Wonder if he's related to Erika Detota, the stage rally driver.....that's a fairly uncommon last name.

Back to the original question though.....just because one guy is quick, doesnt' mean you can't be too - doesn't mean you should buy a slow car "because you can't beat this one guy." Hell, just go run in PR or something, haha....or get better until you can beat the Camaro (or challenge him on a tight course).

In reply to irish44j :

The issue is for RWD vehicles locally my options are limitied. Panther platform vehicles, v6 mustangs, and thats about it unless i want a truck. There is too wide a variance in miata pricing and I want something that can carry stuff in it also being the south non have hardtops and hardtops go instantly on CL. E36's dont really exist unless they are verts, E30's dont exist, MR2's dont exist.

This is the typical e36 crack prices that are normal for my cl. https://asheville.craigslist.org/cto/d/1994-bmw-325i-sedan-made-in/6596368059.html  That is the only manual e36 in a 50 mile radius.

In reply to irish44j :

Also i was talking about Jason Fuller he has FTD every even he has entered in the past year at etrscca

MrChaos said:

In reply to irish44j :

Also i was talking about Jason Fuller he has FTD every even he has entered in the past year at etrscca

Oh, well in M4 he *should* lol. A

MrChaos said:

There is a 91 240 with 140k for $1k near me i just found that i might go and look at if it still available next weekend

This would be the best option. It has LH2.4 engine managemet which means it is solid and tunable, this one is also 1990+ so it has the larger rods which hold up much better to abuse and boost in the future. Non-slotted B cams can be found for cheap and make really good power. I am working on an adapter right now to put the 5 speed GM MA5 and AR5 transmission behind a redblock which will be a big improvement over any of the current manual trans options

Jason Fuller is 10 seconds faster than everyone on every run even across run groups.  Maybe he is the only one with tires.

The two fast guys I know in that area that run Stock Rear are Logan Altmyer and Adam Raymer.  They both trophied at nationals last year with a combined 250hp.  They normally run with the Tennessee Valley region and are consistently near the front no matter who is running against them.

Jason i believe drives a 2.5rs coupe I assume its a full sti swap on rally tires.

ojannen said:

Jason Fuller is 10 seconds faster than everyone on every run even across run groups.  Maybe he is the only one with tires.

The two fast guys I know in that area that run Stock Rear are Logan Altmyer and Adam Raymer.  They both trophied at nationals last year with a combined 250hp.  They normally run with the Tennessee Valley region and are consistently near the front no matter who is running against them.

I love their 240SX - the BRE livery looks awesome. That said, at least we have a partial comparison now, since Logan and Adam have run with us here in DC with that car a couple times over the years.

Logan won the SR class at the East Coast Championships last year over a couple Miatas (he also won it in 2016). In 2017 he was an average of 1.5 seconds faster per run than DC local Justin Roth. Justin is a pretty good driver, but he drives a stock Volvo 240, even with a bike rack on top of it for extra drag, and the car is simply not very fast. He drives it faster than he should be able to lol. 

In 2016, Logan also beat Justin that year. But Justin actually beat Adam Raymer.....

Comparing Logan's time to other cars in the same heat with course conditions that weren't really changing all that much, as I recall:

Logan total time: 896.0 over 12 runs

PR winner Shawn Roberts (moxnix on here) in the same group had a total time of 837.4

PR runner-up Jeremy Sitar in a pretty much stock e36 328i (except with rally tires) was at 860.0

Now, both of them are very fast drivers. 

PR 3rd place Cody Powell had a time of 892.0 in an e30 325i. Cody is usually in the middle of PR class at local events (vs. those same two guys, usually). The same car in MR occasionally gets on the podium but is generally mid-pack in our huge MR class as well. 

So Logan's time (on snow tires) was pretty similar to an e30 on gravels that is usually mid-pack PR in DC local events. It's tough to say how much the tires limit him in time vs. if he was on gravels, though, so not a direct comparison. SR is mostly a ghost town in the mid-Atlantic, so there's very little competition to check against. 

But hell, maybe I'll bring the Porsche 924S out and run in SR this year at East Coasts and see how it matches up with the 240 :o  Since I can't seem to beat Vaughn in MR, hah...

I have no idea what that proves about anything though, but I like data crunching and am tired of doing wiring in my car for the moment, lol. I don't know about other regions, but SR here in DC is pretty much a ghost town.

In reply to irish44j :

SR here is the class other than the AWD classes but those are boring.  Also out of 20-30 entries they have on average 2 FWD cars.

In reply to irish44j :

You can get another data point at the sediv challenge last year in Alabama.  PR and SR ran in the same heat and Logan was a little behind Bee in his rx7 after about 15 minutes of run time.

so why RWD? FWD is almost as fast as AWD in the dirt. If I wanted to be at least a little competitive and wanted a volvo, I would consider the 850.  They can be had for pennies on the dollar, available with a 5 speed, and even in non-turbocharged form, have a torquey inline 5.

Something almost all volvos have that people discount, extremely tight turning radiuses. Even the FWD volvos can practically turn their front wheels sideways

In reply to mad_machine :

I set up my rear diff to be able to make tight corners with ease.

Then I got the car out on course for the first time in eternity, and I realized than when the going gets slow, I'd just pitch the car around sideways.

Basically if you need to turn in that much, you're already off the pace.

(And my S60 has a cornering radius larger than many crew cab pickups, without exaggeration.  OTOH it is technically not FWD)

ojannen said:

In reply to irish44j :

You can get another data point at the sediv challenge last year in Alabama.  PR and SR ran in the same heat and Logan was a little behind Bee in his rx7 after about 15 minutes of run time.

Ah, that is a good one since Bee runs here a lot. Though usually in the Turbo Miata (which runs in the top half of DC's MR class. That RX-7 was really slow though. The times he and Teresa ran it in DC, they weren't anywhere near the top cars, as I recall (though i could be wrong, or that car could have just been dying lol).