We need some help buying a used tow rig

My mom needs a new truck for her horse farm. She currently has an early ninties chevy 3/4 van with a tbi 350 engine. Its on its last legs now, and has been a dissapontment for most of its tenure on the farm.

She can't afford a brand new truck, and buying a used truck is always a daunting task, especialy when it is one that will be a crucial piece of equiptment on the farm. She tows a 4 horse trailer with a conventional style hitch a couple of times a month, sometimes over long distances in mountianous areas.

She is leaning towards an F 250 Super Duty, preferably with a diesel engine and 4X4. I concur that that would be an ideal tow rig. I don't think that she realy needs 4X4, but her van has gotten stuck a couple of times and shes tired of dealing with that. THe problem is that the only trucks that she has found in her price range all have over 100K miles. I think that if it has had good maitance it should be OK, but I don't have any personal experience with these.

Are there any words of wisdom for the used diesel pick up buying horse farmers from the GRM comunity? Also, I am partial to Ford trucks, but is there a solid argument that a Dodge or GM 3/4 or 1 ton diesel might be as good or better a choice? I do know that lots of people swear by Cummins powered Dodges, I have also heard of some spectacular Cummins failures (Its a Cummins-a-part! ). I don't know any thing about heavy duty GMs, execpt that IFS on a heavy duty 4X4 doesn't sound like a great idea. I don't live that close to my mother, so I won't be the guy to check it out, or service it, can the GRM community suggest some other furoms that my mom can check out that can help guide her to make a good purchase? Thanx Andrew.

Generally I like Ford Trucks better. In the diesels, I'm always tempted by the Cummins in the Dodge but I still think I'd do a Ford. Get one old enough to have the 7.3 Turbo Diesel. The 6.0's have had some issues. I wouldn't sweat 100K miles on a decent truck.

i'll second the recommendation to stay away from the 6.0's, they had issues with the injectors or something and would chew up motors when things went bad, iirc.

i've also heard to stay away from one with the manual trans. apparently they're not as stout as the auto,

Milage doesn't matter so much with a diesel. I have a power stroke and I love it but when I'm at the gas station I wish I had a cummins. If you get a dodge with a cummins take it and have the front end looked at before you buy. they use the same front end and the gas models and weight alot more so parts ware out. My uncle found this out the hard way and spent 1600 on front end work. which ever you pick you should never need another truck.

I own a 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 6 speed with Cummins power and it has 148k miles. 2003 and current 2500 (body style change) switched from Dana axles to American Axle. Front end parts are disposable and I went through three sets of OEM wheel bearings ($1400 for each set installed) before switching to a Dynatrac locking hub set. Numerous u-joints (axles, front and rear drive-shafts), entire suspension (replaced with KORE system w/Fox shocks and new springs), clutch, multiple clutch fans, etc. While the engine has been flawless the rest of the truck...not so much. I drive almost entirely freeway miles by myself. Probably been off-road 4 times at my father in-laws farm. I have averaged over 19mpg over the miles I have driven FWIW. I bought the Ram due to the Cummins as the 6.0 Ford/Navistar and 6.0 Duramax were just coming to market at this time and both had teething issues. I'd avoid an early 6.0 Ford like the plague.

Good luck

well let me tell you this. I worked for the C company up until this past week. They are good engines... I however know for a fact one of the chief engineers on the dodge ram turbo system drives a 7.3 ford because the cummins are just too expensive..

A 7.3 litre diesel F-250 with 100k isn't even broken in yet. I've got a friend who has one with 300k that is still going strong.

That said, even on the Fords, it would not surprise me to find that a truck of the vintage/mileage we're talking about needed a fair amount of front end work (ball joints, bushings, etc.).

Guys who pay extra for a new diesel tend to keep their trucks for a long time, which may explain why its hard to find a low mileage used one.

I bought an early '99 F250 with the 7.3L about a year and a half ago with 110K on the clock. I added an Edge Evolution II. It now tows my 28+ft enclosed car hauler with ease and has (knock on wood) been dead reliable. The only things i've done to it are shocks (bilsteins), tires, and the front end stuff, and maintenance. I just fired it up yesterday after sitting since late October. It huffed and chugged a bit at first, but smoothed right out and ran like it had been running the whole time. I got about 12 mpg towing out to the Runoffs in Topeka last year in it too.

Since gas prices dropped used pickups have gone up in value, and there are less of them being traded in. It seems we have a country wide short memory concerning big oil and big prices. Some SUV's have picked up thousands in wholesale values since the summer. Weird.

I used to manage a few Dodge 2WD Rams with the Cummins. 250,000 miles in 5 years on one, 175,000 in 3 years on the other. 1000lbs in the bed and 5000 on the hitch at all times, almost no routine maintenance, oil changes whenever someone remembered. Replaced one rear axle (apparently you should grease them or something) and one transmission (covered by the dealer who forgot to re-connect the trans lines). The ads at the time I purchased them (1995) touted 700,000 miles with no wear to the cylinder walls and I believe it!

As a diesel performance enthusiast, I recommend the following:

Early Duramax. They have great track records. The Chevy trucks that surround them tend to have some reliability issues; mostly electronic. Don't be surprised if your CD player defaults to max volume everytime you turn on the key, but most owners (according to a JDPower survey) didn't find them annoying. Comfy interiors and great ergonomics are a big plus.

1994-1997 Powerstroke. These are not to be confused with the earlier 7.3 turbos... make sure its a powerstroke with the direct injection. There is nothing wrong with the older 7.3 and 6.9, but they are very old-schoool and don't need to be discussed. These early 'strokes don't have an intercooler, but the 215 hp they provide is backed by a buttload of torque that is very nice. I used to full-time RV for three years towing 10,000 lbs with a 1995 F250 powerstroke. It made it through Beartooth pass, crossed the rockies 7 times, made it from Phoenix up 8000 ft to Flagstaff a few times, and never missed a lick. I documented 110k miles of towing 10k lbs in that truck and the only thing I ever had to do (aside from normal maintenance) was replace the glow plug relay. They're a common failure item. Put your foot to the floor and top the hill at 75 mph.

1999-2003 Powerstroke. Along with the redesign of Ford's superduty line, the 7.3 got an intercooler. Nice upgrade. I love the trucks, but in-depth engine repair gets expensive. The new body style means that if you need to replace a head gasket, you have to basically pull the entire cab off the frame. But the engines themselves are awesome, reliable, and powerful. Any added stress or expense fixing problems is offset by the significantly upgraded powerstroke engine.

6.0 powerstroke... don't really consider them. Most of their bad reputation comes from turbo problems, but for someone who wants a dead-nuts reliable truck you might steer clear.

5.9 Cummins: 1989-1992 they used a 12v cummins with a VE rotary pump. They are reliable, simple, mechanical, and wonderful. They won't win any speed contests, but can be very easily modified to make great towing power. 1992-1998 was the same basic engine but they used a P7100 injector pump that is called the "holley carburetor of diesel engines." Its easy to modify, super reliable, and makes great power when modified. 1998.5-2007 cummins are 24v and use an electronically controlled VP44 pump. They have the same mechanical reliability as their predecessors, but the VP44 is VERY sensitive to the fuel volume it gets from the pump in the tank. When the tank pump starts to go, there is a good chance you'll fry the VP44 which is a $2000 repair at best.

But... my editorial commentary on the subject is this... If I could get a cummins engine in a truck with Ford's build quality and Chevy's ergonomics/ride quality, I would be a millionaire. I like ford trucks, dodge's use of the cummins, and chevy's extensive devotion to rider comfort.

This also depends a great deal on what kind of horse trailer... if its a 2-horse trailer then you can tow that with a 1/2 ton. If its a 6-horse trailer, then we're talking something bigger. I will let you in on my latest truck purchase; I am a diesel freak, so when I needed a truck I looked hard for an early cummins, an early Dmax, or a 7.3 PSD to fit my $5000 budget. The best I could find was a 1994 234k-mile cummins for $4400... well under NADA value, but I ended up buying a 120k-mile F150 gasser for $4500... also well under NADA value. As much as I wanted a diesel, the current pricing in my area combined with the price of diesel made me consider (and buy) a gas truck.

billy3esq wrote: That said, even on the Fords, it would not surprise me to find that a truck of the vintage/mileage we're talking about needed a fair amount of front end work (ball joints, bushings, etc.).

Yes but the service intervals wil be much less than dodges. I've been around them for a few years now and geez.. WHY do they need balljoints nearly every year, if you but some mileage on them..

I always had a soft spot for 4 cyl. turbo diesel Isuzus or NDs. They haul everything an F-250 will, cheap to run and parts a plenty.

Dan

914Driver wrote: I always had a soft spot for 4 cyl. turbo diesel Isuzus or NDs. They haul everything an F-250 will, cheap to run and parts a plenty. Dan

Some how I doubt that that would work out on the farm, unless you can put your 4 horses & gear inside of them.

does any one know of a good diesel pick up enthusiast's forum? And thanks for the tip about avoiding the 6.0 ford power strokes.

HappyAndy wrote: does any one know of a good diesel pick up enthusiast's forum? And thanks for the tip about avoiding the 6.0 ford power strokes.

One of my friends has done a bunch of work on the EGR systems of the 6.0's. He works in the warranty department of Delphi. The early 6.0's are crap. The later ones are great. The mods needed to make the engines reliable are already out on the web.

I worked in product development for the C for a few years and love the engines, but the premium they demand is silly. Unless you are pulling heavy ALL the time, I don't see the need when you can save yourself 5-6K by purchasing a ford of similar spec. Lots of fuel can be had for that price difference.

I would also stay away from any diesel north of '03-04 as a rule. Two things happened then to send the fuel mileage's plumetting. 1. The first stage of emissions regs started in 2004.5 for dodge I believe.. With better emissions(and using incylinder methods to control such emissions comes a fuel mileage penalty) 2. The power race. AS companies were jockeying for the most powerful truck they just kept turning up the fuel screw.

For a hint go on forums and ask questions about the new dodge's, chevy's and fords.. They all get ass mileage towing. I know the fords will sometimes get into the 8mpg range. Why buy a diesel then? Makes no sense.

Stick to the earlier diesels and you'll be good. I could go on more and more about the subject, but I will not... I will only say that in 2010 you'll see ford and chevy go through some major issues trying to meet the emissions standards. Thats why everyone is going urea.

HappyAndy wrote: does any one know of a good diesel pick up enthusiast's forum? And thanks for the tip about avoiding the 6.0 ford power strokes.

cumminsforum.com

http://www.powerstroke.org/

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/index.php for GM stuff

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/index.php for dodge

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/ for ford.

My current tow rig is a modified 95 Dodge one ton diesel dually 2wd. It puts down over 600ft lbs of torque to the wheels, knocks out a little over 20MPG unloaded, and with almost 200k on the clock has been very reliable. I love the extra stability of a dually.
I recently sold a 99 4wd Ford 3/4 ton with the 7.3 diesel. I really liked that truck and thought the interior was nicer than the Dodges, but the lack of the dual rear wheels made it more unstable on curvy roads when towing heavy. It wasn't as fast as the Dodge either, but was stock and could have been modified fairly easily to at least get them close. I have the need for 4wd on my tow rig, so my current plan is to eventually sell the Dodge and look for a 5.9 cummins or 7.3 powerstoke 4wd dually. I will look at the Duramax also if it's in my price range, but don't have any experience with them. I've had a few gas powered tow rigs, but feel the Diesel is the way to go for performance, reliability, and mileage. http://www.turbodieselregister.com is a resource for cummins powered trucks.

I have a 93 Dodge with the best diesel out there. The Cummins is the absolute be-all-end-all diesel available in a light duty truck, especially the 92-98 trucks with the "holly of all pumps". Anytime you can turn 2 screws and gain 50 HP and 130 lbs/ft more torque is a winner in my book. I read an article once that compared the big three diesels out there and the (what I call) duty cycle. they calculated that at 75% load the Duramax was operating at about 70% of it's capacity. The Powersmoke was in the low 60% range and the cummins was right about 40%! That's why the Cummins routinly run 3/4 of a million miles without the engine ever being opened. I get 22 mpg on the highway empty and 20mpg on the highway with 7,000 lbs in tow. BTW, the Dodge will be for sale soon!!!

Disclaimer: The 50 HP and 130 lbs./ft and the working load percentages are based on my reading and experience. I've never had my truck dynoed and can't remember the article about the working load percentages exactly but I did my best.

Not a single mention of a Hilux or Land Cruiser (the real truck, not the SUV)? Or is there some unwritten rule that all farm trucks have to be American?

I have driven both a Dodge and Ford diesel powered truck. I loved the Cummings engine and if I was going to buy a truck I would want the Dodge, Provided the front suspension was in good order. AS for the Ford, the ones I drove had from 230K to 275K miles on them, pulling loads up to 25K lbs, so at 100K as was mentioned they are only just broken in.

Buy the truck in the best condition you can afford and your mother should be OK.

My dad has a 2003 Dmax. It's got about 300,000 km on it, and aside from a transfer case issue last week, its been darn near perfect. The Allison automatic is a gem too. He doesn't tow heavy, just a 33' 5th wheel RV (7500 lbs or so?) but it does it quite effortlessly. As mentioned before, the GM's are very comfortable to drive as well.

914Driver wrote: I always had a soft spot for 4 cyl. turbo diesel Isuzus or NDs. They haul everything an F-250 will, cheap to run and parts a plenty. Dan

hush now.. don't let the secret out.