We should probably try to have a productive EV thread.

No Time said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Tax credit is not a discount in the purchase price. The only time it gets applied to the principal is in a lease, where the finance company gets the credit and reduces capitalized cost to lower lease payments.

You still pay the higher price OTD, but get some back at tax time.  Using the tax credit to show a lower purchase price is in the same as when Tesla was using fuel savings as a way to show lower prices on their website than the actual price you would end up paying (they've since changed it)

The other catch is that some of those rebates have wording the limits the credit to not exceed your tax burden, so if you only owe $6,000 you might only qualify for the $6,000 and not $7500. 

Before you suggest it, if someone is responsible and takes the refund from the tax credit and applies it to the loan, they will reduce the principal, but their monthly payments will still be the same as before, so the credit doesn't really help their monthly budget. 

Last point, actually a question. Is the larger refund you receive as a result of the tax credit for purchasing an EV taxable in the following year as income? Is it added to your net income for calculating tax bills?

Why do I have the feeling that this entire mess is set up for the benefit of the leasing companies and the finance companies, not to mention the auto companies that may actually own the first two companies. It's not about the individual saving money.

84FSP said:

GIRTHQUAKE said:

STM317 said:

In theory, couldn't they flat tow them and use the regen to charge a bit instead of a jump pack? Is it terrible for heat management to have constant regen for a handful of miles?

Hell yeah! Totally could, and I swear it's been done before.

It has been done but is really bad for them as the car has no ability to control the charge rate or any of the critical thermal controls.  It would void all warranties and they would know immediately as the vehicles are all linked to Tesla specifically sharing that vehiclea data back and forth.

I guess I need a lesson in Regeneration then.    Any time you slow down, the car will be generating electricity. You don't even need to slow down. If you are going down hill  you can be in regen. Pumping electricity back into the battery.  
   So how would that be different  then towing it?  Or just coasting down a hill?  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know most of you are averse to Jalopnik (I usually find the comments have a ton of relevant info). But I don't find this surprising at all.

https://jalopnik.com/the-ev-early-adopter-era-might-be-over-and-automakers-1850720716

In reply to z31maniac :

Interesting article 

Toyman! said:

bobzilla said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Yeh, prices keep going up. Last month gas cost $3.49/9   
this month it's up to $3.89/9. 

and it went back down this week. Whens the last time electricity costs went down?

I actually looked that up out of curiosity. 

Rates in SC went up by .3%. Some of them have dropped a fair amount. RI dropped 4%. 

Most of them have gone up and some of them have jumped substantially. 

https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/

Ours right now is right at 16 cents per. the extra 23% would put us over 20. Total electric house, well, I'm feeling it.

frenchyd said:

84FSP said:

GIRTHQUAKE said:

STM317 said:

In theory, couldn't they flat tow them and use the regen to charge a bit instead of a jump pack? Is it terrible for heat management to have constant regen for a handful of miles?

Hell yeah! Totally could, and I swear it's been done before.

It has been done but is really bad for them as the car has no ability to control the charge rate or any of the critical thermal controls.  It would void all warranties and they would know immediately as the vehicles are all linked to Tesla specifically sharing that vehiclea data back and forth.

I guess I need a lesson in Regeneration then.    Any time you slow down, the car will be generating electricity. You don't even need to slow down. If you are going down hill  you can be in regen. Pumping electricity back into the battery.  
   So how would that be different  then towing it?  Or just coasting down a hill?  

My rudimentary understanding is that regen can  produce similar amounts of energy as Level 3 fast charging. When charging, there's communication between the car and the charger. The vehicle can monitor temps and battery conditions and alter the charging speed to keep everything happy.

I don't know that any EV has the ability to limit regen to protect itself in the same way. That could potentially create some pretty undesirable braking situations where the driver might not know how much regen force would be used at any time. 

So, my guess is that flat towing to charge via regen would be a lot like stopping at a Level 3 fast charger and not having any way to control charge rate.

In reply to STM317 :

Really I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I still fail to understand the difference in regeneration  during towing and just going downhill?  
  I do understand you aren't supposed to charge above 90% to leave room for regen, 

     But that wouldn't be the case with a battery at zero?  
   Wait a minute.  Could it be that with the battery at zero the charging rate is limited?  Then could you charge at slower speeds at first and once above whatever threshold  go ahead and speed up ?  I'm 

Well I won't try to french fry this but as an owner of a PHEV (Wrangler 4xe), I have a few things to add.

• EV's don't save money.  There are lots of reasons to get one but saving significant money is not one of them.  The buy-in cost relative to the energy cost and maintenance savings just isn't there in most cases, or the payout is really a long ways away.  
• Charging is still a pain.  There is not one-stop-shop for locations of chargers, and a lot of chargers are broken, not compatible, etc.  Since they are typically unattended, they don't get the maintenance gas station pumps do. Chargers are really hard to find for an out-of-towner and a significant portion are on private property (parking garages, hotels, businesses, etc)
• There is no guarantee a charger will be functioning or available when you show up.  Gas station closed?  Head down the road 10 minutes.  All the pumps busy?  Worst case it takes 5-10 minutes for the place to clear out and you are still on your way in 15 minutes max.  

PHEV is pretty slick but the level of complication is frightening, and this is coming from a guy who will do literaly any job on a vehicle beside body work.  I don't think our Wrangler 4xe is gonna stick around much after the warranty runs out.  

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Why do I have the feeling that this entire mess is set up for the benefit of the leasing companies and the finance companies, not to mention the auto companies that may actually own the first two companies. It's not about the individual saving money.

 I think there's a lot of validity there- lots of reasons for a company to try and become an 1880s style monopoly and own every facet so you can control the end result, for better or worse.

z31maniac said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know most of you are averse to Jalopnik (I usually find the comments have a ton of relevant info). But I don't find this surprising at all.

https://jalopnik.com/the-ev-early-adopter-era-might-be-over-and-automakers-1850720716

Interesting detail I'd like to underscore:

They also reportedly think better EVs are coming soon, so why get a meh one now?

It's the classic "Osbourne Effect" that even I've had with my Tesla- why buy one that's used, when a new one gets you more range? People were halting on buying Teslas for a little bit because their claimed ranges kept increasing (now questionable) and I can totally see why.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

I understood it as saying to "Why buy a 2024, when surely they will be better in 2027?" (not anything to do with used models) Which is more inline with the Osbourne Effect, because it's about announcing a new product that will make existing one obsolete, so why buy the current model. 

But in the end, I still think price/range anxiety and availability of reliable charging stations for non-Tesla models is a larger hurdle.

And to truly afford a $50k+ vehicle, you need to have a pretty hefty salary. And I specifically use the word "afford" and not "buy." I see those two as very different. 

frenchyd said:

84FSP said:

GIRTHQUAKE said:

STM317 said:

In theory, couldn't they flat tow them and use the regen to charge a bit instead of a jump pack? Is it terrible for heat management to have constant regen for a handful of miles?

Hell yeah! Totally could, and I swear it's been done before.

It has been done but is really bad for them as the car has no ability to control the charge rate or any of the critical thermal controls.  It would void all warranties and they would know immediately as the vehicles are all linked to Tesla specifically sharing that vehiclea data back and forth.

I guess I need a lesson in Regeneration then.    Any time you slow down, the car will be generating electricity. You don't even need to slow down. If you are going down hill  you can be in regen. Pumping electricity back into the battery.  
   So how would that be different  then towing it?  Or just coasting down a hill?  

Dead car in a flat tow does not have the advantage of the operating vehicle/smart brain making all the adjustments to energy flow and temp.  They are constantly tweaking how the regen flows and temps in an operating vehicle vs the dead vehicle on flat tow. 

To your point, the same amount of energy is being generated assuming same speed etc.  My expectation is that the system getting backfed at an unmannaged feed rate with none of the temp management would do bad things.

TIL about The Osborne effect. Interesting little rabbit hole to go down.

84FSP said:

frenchyd said:

84FSP said:

GIRTHQUAKE said:

STM317 said:

In theory, couldn't they flat tow them and use the regen to charge a bit instead of a jump pack? Is it terrible for heat management to have constant regen for a handful of miles?

Hell yeah! Totally could, and I swear it's been done before.

It has been done but is really bad for them as the car has no ability to control the charge rate or any of the critical thermal controls.  It would void all warranties and they would know immediately as the vehicles are all linked to Tesla specifically sharing that vehiclea data back and forth.

I guess I need a lesson in Regeneration then.    Any time you slow down, the car will be generating electricity. You don't even need to slow down. If you are going down hill  you can be in regen. Pumping electricity back into the battery.  
   So how would that be different  then towing it?  Or just coasting down a hill?  

Dead car in a flat tow does not have the advantage of the operating vehicle/smart brain making all the adjustments to energy flow and temp.  They are constantly tweaking how the regen flows and temps in an operating vehicle vs the dead vehicle on flat tow. 

To your point, the same amount of energy is being generated assuming same speed etc.  My expectation is that the system getting backfed at an unmannaged feed rate with none of the temp management would do bad things.

But why wouldn't the "dead car " be alive moments after starting to move?  
 Watching a video on BBC  where they drove each test car  to its absolute maximum range, the lights on the dash etc were still on and even when they got to a charger they had to keep driving some around and around the chargers  until they were barely creeping. 
  I know shortly after reaching 0 a Tesla slows to 40 mph but still keeps going for a little while.   Maybe we can Get Kieth  Tanner  to explain exactly what happens?  

Regarding flat tow charging: Well, you would have to have a software controlled mode for the vehicle to be out in to work. I don't think there is a way to put it in that mode from factory as is. But there would likely be control over the Regen strength and varying it over time.

Realistically, it would be like flat towing a car with it's brakes on. It would be dynamically terrible, terrible efficiency for the towing vehicle (thermodynamics: no free lunch, you are turning whatever power the front vehicle is putting out to battery charge with substantial losses involved).  So, realistically, why would you?

84FSP said:

frenchyd said:

84FSP said:

GIRTHQUAKE said:

STM317 said:

In theory, couldn't they flat tow them and use the regen to charge a bit instead of a jump pack? Is it terrible for heat management to have constant regen for a handful of miles?

Hell yeah! Totally could, and I swear it's been done before.

It has been done but is really bad for them as the car has no ability to control the charge rate or any of the critical thermal controls.  It would void all warranties and they would know immediately as the vehicles are all linked to Tesla specifically sharing that vehiclea data back and forth.

I guess I need a lesson in Regeneration then.    Any time you slow down, the car will be generating electricity. You don't even need to slow down. If you are going down hill  you can be in regen. Pumping electricity back into the battery.  
   So how would that be different  then towing it?  Or just coasting down a hill?  

Dead car in a flat tow does not have the advantage of the operating vehicle/smart brain making all the adjustments to energy flow and temp.  They are constantly tweaking how the regen flows and temps in an operating vehicle vs the dead vehicle on flat tow. 

To your point, the same amount of energy is being generated assuming same speed etc.  My expectation is that the system getting backfed at an unmannaged feed rate with none of the temp management would do bad things.

In your hypothetical the charge rate could be unmanaged, but I believe regen is capped at 65kw, well below supercharging speeds?  That's certainly a thermal issue for an ice cold pack, but at the height of summer?  

In reply to mattm :

Frankly relies on too many variables, but considering a cold car has to moderate it's regen already, a theoretical "regen while towing" mode could do the same so long as it can still detect and test.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

In reply to mattm :

Frankly relies on too many variables, but considering a cold car has to moderate it's regen already, a theoretical "regen while towing" mode could do the same so long as it can still detect and test.

I disagree about too many variables. As long as there is power at all, the basics are already built in. The car already has a protocol for regen with an ice cold pack. There is already a regen limit (as far as I can find) of 65kw. Seems like this could be a solvable problem, unless the Hv battery AND the 12v are both dead..... potentially 

Don't all of the electronics and computers in an EV run off a separate traditional automotive 12V battery, that will power them even when the powertrain battery is completely depleted?

bobzilla said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Yeh, prices keep going up. Last month gas cost $3.49/9   
this month it's up to $3.89/9. 

and it went back down this week. Whens the last time electricity costs went down?

Uh, July 6....

Details:

https://www.fpl.com/rates/2023-bills.html

You won't be able to flat-tow a cold/dead/busted car, but a "stopped at 0.5% charge after being unable to maintain 55 mph" car can certainly be flat-towed to a charger. It might recharge quickly, it might recharge slowly, but the plan would be to tow it the last few miles it was trying to run rather than arrive at the charger at a higher SoC. 

All right. Tomorrow I pick up my new 2023 Model 3, RWD, red with white interior. MSRP was $44380, discounted by $3460 to $40920. The car gets a $7500 Federal tax credit and a $2000 California rebate. I wanted a 48 month loan, so I financed it over 60 and will use the federal tax credit to pay off one year's worth of principal. 

I think this is the least expensive RWD sedan you can buy, slightly cheaper than a Charger V6. Tesla doesn't split out RWD from AWD cars in its sales figures, but it is the best-selling RWD passenger car in the USA right now by a big margin. 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Nice. This will be the second increase in 6 months for us. The first was 11% in Feb. Now they want 23% on top of that. And there are exactly zero options for electicity other than what is provided. IT's not like a cell phone where you can shop around. Each company has it's area and everyone else stays out.

chaparral said:

All right. Tomorrow I pick up my new 2023 Model 3, RWD, red with white interior. MSRP was $44380, discounted by $3460 to $40920. The car gets a $7500 Federal tax credit and a $2000 California rebate. I wanted a 48 month loan, so I financed it over 60 and will use the federal tax credit to pay off one year's worth of principal. 

 

I think this is the least expensive RWD sedan you can buy, slightly cheaper than a Charger V6. Tesla doesn't split out RWD from AWD cars in its sales figures, but it is the best-selling RWD passenger car in the USA right now by a big margin. 

I just talked my friend out of buying a new Charger SXT AWD V6 last month at $35k.  Can't imagine a RWD would be $5k or more than the AWD.

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

We all know that didn't happen. This is the same conversation. If you can't see the benefit of having EVs I don't care to explain it to you because you're choosing to be ignorant by not educating yourself with factual information. Not hearsay. Not conspiracy theories. Not ridiculous ideas you choose to believe because you don't like people having choices you don't agree with. Also, give the strawman arguments a break. EVs are not about electrical infrastructure. They're not about loan terms. They're not about what your girlfriend's brother's cousin's uncle is doing. It's another car choice we can make. Another form of compelling performance. The side benefits are many. The disadvantages exist, will change, and become less of an issue as the technology matures.  

We are mostly ICE devotees and no one is coming to take that away. Your ICE car will be usable for our lifetimes. Change is the only constant. Choose to be scared of change if you like.  

Personally, I like ice cream. Whatever flavor you're into is ok with me. Let's enjoy ice cream together. Why be upset that you can now buy frozen yogurt?