Went to a 180 car autocross yesterday, holy low-seat-time Batman!

Type Q wrote: In the San Francisco Bay area 180 drivers is not unusual. We have had as many as 320 before. (That was a long day) We consider 120 or less to be low turnout.

And the bay area has at least 3 active clubs all of whom run events roughly monthly with that kind of attendance. There's a lot of interest around here. :)

Due to the competition aspect, in terms of dollars/minute it's a more fair comparison to a club racing class. I dunno what it costs to run a Spec Miata for a weekend, but it's a lot more than a simple track day, and I'm told you usually get less track time in the Spec Miata as well.

The other major difference between autox and track days is that it's a lower overall time commitment. A track day is generally at least a 24-hour exercise (most tracks are far enough away that you need a hotel room), whereas autox you can do in 4 hours plus the drive time to/from the event. From a time-away-from-the-family standpoint, that's a lot easier to sell to the spouse.

That said, I love doing track days. For a while I was going once a month, but that was before my daughter was born… :)

SlickDizzy wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

That's what I discovered. $300 sounds like a lot, but I get almost four HOURS of track time at Road America for that $300...well worth it, IMHO.

$300 sounds cheap. Add in the cost of fuel, tires, brakes, hotel, etc and you can easily double or triple it.

Jerry wrote: Almost forgot, there was an Abarth there! I took many photos to see how the oem suspension looked out there. Might have to give it a go this year.

Can you post a picture or two of the Abarth you saw in action? I bet they look cool squatting into a corner at 40 mph!

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

Well, this is mostly true. Dollar per minute, track days blow everything out of the water. Everything. However, if you don't have $300 to spend on a track day, but you have $40 or 50 or whatever they are now, Autocross is a great way to blast around in your car for a little while and hang out with car folks.

I haven't been to an Autocross for a while since I got into Time Trials, but I sure do miss just hanging out and doing a couple runs in a parking lot. I miss running at Ripken Stadium--I did that on an inch of ice one time on summer tires in the old Z3. Fourth place overall I think... out of 60 something cars. I think a Prius on Blizzaks had the best time of the day. It might have been the most fun I've ever had on four wheels.

codrus wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

That's what I discovered. $300 sounds like a lot, but I get almost four HOURS of track time at Road America for that $300...well worth it, IMHO.

$300 sounds cheap. Add in the cost of fuel, tires, brakes, hotel, etc and you can easily double or triple it.

All true... but... Figure $30 or so per autocross and that's roughly $10 a minute (nevermind the other 6 hours you spend there). So at about $10 a minute, having FOUR hours at a track day event, figuring even $1000 for the weekend, works out to $0.24 a minute. Much cheaper still if you bring your own food, cheaper yet if you camp at the track. Once I hit the trackday crackpipe, it was all over for me as far as autocross goes, but to each his own. And no fair criticizing either one unless you've done both.

ps: I have no idea why the font size of my replies is so small...

confuZion3 wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

Well, this is mostly true. Dollar per minute, track days blow everything out of the water. Everything. However, if you don't have $300 to spend on a track day, but you have $40 or 50 or whatever they are now, Autocross is a great way to blast around...

True, but take that $30 and put it in the piggy bank every month, then go do the trackday anyway. Same expense, way better return on the money.

That said, I realize that it's not for everyone, and that everyone has a different situation. Still, if there's a will, there's a way. Take lunch to work, cancel cable TV, and presto, there you go, spare money.

The SCCA autocross in Oklahoma City gets you between 8-10 runs in a day maybe more. Its not very popular which probably helps.

Jerry wrote: We had a joint event with another region, and I went down to hang out and get some photographs (little paved for my tastes). 180 cars, and found out they had 3 runs each. Not per heat, but all day. Not that I ever have, but I will never complain about only 8 runs during our rallycross.

Hell, we complain when we only get 8 runs in rallycross (in addition to 2-4 "recce" runs where we all just hoon sideways in the dirt and mess around). Takes at least 10-12 to make people marginally satisfied, and we're a fairly big region (40-60 cars per event).

Too little seat time vs. standing in a parking lot working course time is why I pretty much quit autocross, especially in this region where 150-car fields are the norm at SCCA events.

kb58 wrote:

confuZion3 wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

Well, this is mostly true. Dollar per minute, track days blow everything out of the water. Everything. However, if you don't have $300 to spend on a track day, but you have $40 or 50 or whatever they are now, Autocross is a great way to blast around...

True, but take that $30 and put it in the piggy bank every month, then go do the trackday anyway. Same expense, way better return on the money. That said, I realize that it's not for everyone, and that everyone has a different situation. Still, if there's a will, there's a way. Take lunch to work, cancel cable TV, and presto, there you go, spare money.

Oh, I'm with you! I did everything I could to get myself onto the track as often as possible. I think this season will be a mix of all of the track days I can find the time to do in the Miata and a couple autocross days. I'd like to bring the Viper out to something a little slower to try to throw it off balance to see what it does. I'd hate to find out its bad habits while I'm driving on the street, or worse, on the track at 100+ mph.

jstein77 wrote: Even if you only get 2 minutes of seat time, it will be the most intense, heart pounding, knee shaking adrenaline-packed 2 minutes of your life.

How much adrenaline can you get? You're on pavement. You know the course is going to be the same as last time, no surprises like some FWD doofus throwing a whole lot of loose dirt where you expect to have grip when you're trying to throw the car at a fast corner with a tight exit. There's an "OH E36 M3" moment if there ever was one. And if you're not having those BMW moments then you're not pressing enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4rG3r37Hl0

I've never had to catch my breath after an autocross run. And track days... the last track day I did, I wished I had a cell phone so I could talk to someone to relieve the boredom of going around and around while staring at the rear bumpers of exotic car drivers pansying through the corners.

confuZion3 wrote:

Jerry wrote: Almost forgot, there was an Abarth there! I took many photos to see how the oem suspension looked out there. Might have to give it a go this year.

Can you post a picture or two of the Abarth you saw in action? I bet they look cool squatting into a corner at 40 mph!

He never seemed too wobbly on the corners. Probably give it a go sometime this year.

I have to agree about the adrenalin thing. As much as I enjoy autocross from a competition and mental exercise point of view, there's no risk. Granted, after so many years racing DH and just missing trees at 40 mph, the safety aspect of being in a car changes the perception. My fear is the financial consequences of wrecking or breaking the car. But fear for my own safety never enters my mind. Racing a hill-climb in an open formula car. Now there's some risk.

Ian F wrote: Racing a hill-climb in an open formula car. Now there's some risk.

That's one of the few automotive practices that I see on video and think "Fark THAT".

I'll go sideways on gravel at 90mph. Heck, I'll even read somebody the notes while THEY do it, knowing that not only am I trusting my tender, fragile flesh to their driving ability, but also my ability to keep up with the notes in time.

I'll even strap myself into a slingshot dragster, nards resting against the diff and driveshaft between my ankles, vision directly forward obscured by supercharger or tunnel ram or otherwise something that isn't the actual track.

But open wheel on a hillclimb? Nope nope nope nope...

Jerry wrote: In reply to Knurled: Western OH and Cincinnati at Wilmington Air Park.

Ahhhhhh no wonder it was so packed. That was the Test-n-tune for the Match Tour there next weekend. Plus it was out on the big pad, and that lot is well worth drive for. We had several local guys up there saturday to get a feel for the concrete since all of our lots are asphalt.

In reply to Spoolpigeon:

The WOR Solo Chair was telling me about it becoming a big test-n-tune for next weekend's two day event. SWMBO just finalized a trip to her friend's in Toledo next weekend, so I might bop on down and watch/photo a little of that too.

If nothing else, I got to see a wider variety of vehicles than our normal Solo events at Kil Kare. Open wheel, karts, Pro Solo-looking rigs, ... Made for a good viewing.

SlickDizzy wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

That's what I discovered. $300 sounds like a lot, but I get almost four HOURS of track time at Road America for that $300...well worth it, IMHO.

That's 0 HOURS of competition. 5 or 6 minutes > 0.

That whole dollars/run thing is why the PCA in Houston is starting to run a capped entry event. 50 people, 8 runs, catered lunch and still get done early.

In reply to Jerry:

Wilmington last year was my first ever tour event and I had just as much fun watching all the cool cars as I did actually racing.

Spoolpigeon wrote: Ahhhhhh no wonder it was so packed. That was the Test-n-tune for the Match Tour there next weekend. Plus it was out on the big pad, and that lot is well worth drive for. We had several local guys up there saturday to get a feel for the concrete since all of our lots are asphalt.

I wonder if some of the Philly guys were there. They had an event yesterday and looking at the results, almost none of the top local drivers attended. One or two being absent isn't surprising... but all of but two of them (who co-drive a AS Vette and are probably just burning through leftover A6's from the '13 season) was odd.

Unfortunately, I fear for our local scene right now. We only have one, rather limited lot left to run on which in an old runway, so as you can imagine, every course is a variation of "slalom-turnaround-slalom". Our course designers have been creative, but there's only so much they can do. It's frustrating that for as big an area as the Philly region covers, there simply aren't many lots large enough and without a ton of parking islands to run on. Hours spent scanning Googlemaps has turned up nothing. I've seen a couple of new, fairly large lots, but landscape architects just HAVE to sprinkle the damn things with little patches of dirt with a tree in the middle.

Ian F wrote: so as you can imagine, every course is a variation of "slalom-turnaround-slalom". Our course designers have been creative, but there's only so much they can do.

SLALOMCROSS!

(sorry, local meme, had to do it, there was alcohol involved, etc)

Well-organized region + good site + well-informed competitors = good day and lots of runs at the autocross. Any of those things go bad, autocross can become a real death march.

Let's face it, lots of sites are drying up. To maintain course length and maneuver speed, clubs are having to build courses that loop over themselves on postage stamp lots or narrow runways where it simply isn't feasible to get a second or third car on track at once.

Release a car from the starting like every 20-25 seconds, all day long, and let me know how much more awesome that is. Of course that demands proper course design, proper management of workers, minimizing downtime due to changeovers,and having a way to make sure everyone is in the right place at the right time. There's plenty of regions that do it this way, especially out west, where big sites are still available. But there's plenty that can be adapted by smaller regions to make their events better.

kb58 wrote:

confuZion3 wrote:

Woody wrote: Dollar for dollar, track days are better.

Well, this is mostly true. Dollar per minute, track days blow everything out of the water. Everything. However, if you don't have $300 to spend on a track day, but you have $40 or 50 or whatever they are now, Autocross is a great way to blast around...

True, but take that $30 and put it in the piggy bank every month, then go do the trackday anyway. Same expense, way better return on the money. That said, I realize that it's not for everyone, and that everyone has a different situation. Still, if there's a will, there's a way. Take lunch to work, cancel cable TV, and presto, there you go, spare money.

keep in mind that your wear items don't last as long on track as they will at a-x

a set of race pads will last me two weekends at the track, and last 2+ yrs of 25 a-x/yr

tires the same way … brake fluid … the same ….etc

that said I love both, and our first 2 events at Z-Max drag way (Charlotte NC) CCRSCCA has had 192 and 201 for participants … 4 runs each event … even with all the "typical" timing issues

JG Pasterjak wrote: Release a car from the starting like every 20-25 seconds, all day long, and let me know how much more awesome that is.

This is hard to do on a narrow, runway lot. where the course essentially doubles back on itself. The best lots we had were at the Phillies staduim where the start and finish lines were usually pretty far apart. It was easy to have 3 or 4 cars on course at once. The size of the lot made for fun, almost track-like courses too that were often well over a minute long. There was even a bit of elevation change in places due to drainage grading. Unfortunately, the management tripled the rental fee, which was already 2x as high as other lots. If you look at it on Googlemaps, you can see tire tracks from the last course we ran. And amusingly, there's some sort of GM test drive/tent-event in the satellite view.

Has any region ever actually bought property and created their own venue?

Ian F wrote: Has any region ever actually bought property and created their own venue?

This was mentioned at the SCCA convention a few weeks ago. Damn I wish I could remember who it was, but some region did, and has room for a E36 M3load of various events. They'll pay the site off fairly quick, then everything they make is $$$$ plus security of knowing it's there next time. I'm really curious how much it would cost me to buy ~4 acres of field here for a rallycross site.

In reply to Jerry:

Well, that's encouraging. It'll be interesting to hear how they did it from a financial and legal POV.