Olemiss540 said:cdowd (Forum Supporter) said:I have not looked into how horrible an E60 M5 is to own, but I would be looking there. V10 awesomeness.
You really dont need to look very far to realize it is NOT THE BMW TO OWN. The literal most unreliable BMW every built.
And the only BMW I truly lust for
Echoing some previous commentary. I have an E36 sedan with the S52 and an E46 M3 with the S54 and while can't get enough of the power delivery and sound of the S54 I really prefer the E36 chassis and lower weight to the E46.
If I were adding another to the stable I'd be looking for a Z4M coupe or a 1M.
I know you said you were looking for newer but I think you would enjoy the reliability of an e28 M5. I was talking to a guy that had driven all that era BMW M's M3, M5 and M6 and he was surprised that the M5 drove like a more powerful overgrown M3 and less like the GT style M6.
gearheadE30 said:The newest one I would buy is a 2006 330i, sport package, manual transmission, without iDrive.
Can confirm... Took a while to find mine too
I have to ask, what kind of "ultimate driving experience" are you aiming for?
If you do start with an E36, I have a '94 325is, they are the lightest starting point. Given your stated budget, find the best 15k example and know you will spend the rest to bring it into a current state of maintenance.
But again, what you want to do with the car, requires how you refresh the car, Find a smoke machine to locate the vacuum leaks and be prepared to change the oil pan gasket, that gives you access to the oil pump sprocket that should be safety wired,
There is more, but it's part of their charm.
We picked out a nice E39 530i for our new driver son. I wanted him in something bigger than a tin can, and more importantly, in something he could take some pride in and take care of. He's been enjoying the car for a year now, and I can say I think we made the right decision.
I wanted to hold out for a 5-speed car, but my wife wasn't 100% sold on the idea, so when this minty, low mileage '03 came along, we jumped on it. New brakes and lower control arms, and she drives like no 17-year old car has a right to.
Articles like this one are easy to find:
https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/04/26/best-top-gear-car-e39-bmw-5-series/
E39 530i has been known as pretty much the perfect daily driver car. Doesn't have quite the thrills as other models but does just about everything well.
racerdave600 said:A z3M Coupe is high on my want list. Second the E46 M3 idea also. The 135i is also a fun car, and at that price point, you'd have a lot of money left to maintain it!
And you better have a pretty penny if you don't your own maintenance.
One of the things I found out talking to other BMW bros, part of the problem with 135s, they used a cheaper version of the engine seals than they did for the M cars. So the extra heat from the turbo is why they all develop leaks so early.
Then there is whole thing about if the OFHG leaks long enough, it can kill the belt tensioner which means it's likely the belt will get sucked through the front seal and toast the engine.
I love the way they feel and drive, I just can't justify the cost anymore for a modern BMW.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
My best friend has daily driven a manual E39 530iT for years now. As far as a nice driving cushy wagon it couldn't be better. He's had some typical e39 issues with electronics and cooling system and water leaks. When there aren't five people and all our lemons gear in it, it handles pretty well. Controls are very well connected, especially steering. CDV was less invasive than on the Z3.
I willingly daily an engine swapped e30 so I have a hard time fathoming anything newer than 1993ish
Thanks for all the replies so far.
To clarify a little more I want a performance car. A canyon carver if you will. I can also do most of my own maintenance, I just don't want something I have to work on all the time. I also know a guy that only works on European cars so I have somebody to go to if needed.
Based on your replies I think I am leaning toward the E46 M3. The Z4M would be nice, but when I think of BMW I think sport sedan.
A couple of questions. While I would prefer a 6 speed, how does the SMG tranny rate? It appears the changeover to a proper clutch setup is fairly cheap and easy, but if I find a SMG car for the right price do I want it?
How would you rate a car that has modifications? Such as coilovers, exhaust, ect. I realize this depends on the quality of the parts, but in general improvement or not?
In reply to D2W :
Personally I would try and focus on a ZHP car more than SMG or not.
But keep in mind that SMG cars, converted or not, do not have the resale of a real 6 speed.
I currently own an SMG and really like it, but its not for everyone. Drive one first.
I have own MANY BMWs from all eras and think that what you are looking for is an e46 M3.
You want the manual. Not knocking the SMG (some like it and some don't) but for the driving experience and resell you want the manual. Stock cars tend to bring more money than modified ones so if your intentions are to modify it get one that already has what you want. Make sure the Vanos is locked down and the rear subframe has been reinforced. The car handles very well from the factory. I had coilovers on mine and it was like it was on rails. Leave the exhaust alone, they tend to get raspy and the drone will haunt you. Here is a shot of my old car.
When pushed hard, SMG's shine. No problems on track shifting mid corner and fast shifts. Acts like a real manual because the gearbox IS the same 6 speed unit with hydraulic actuators, etc. Downside being it is NOT as smooth in town when being shifted lazy and once drastic repairs are needed (aside from salmon relay replacement) you are better off converting to a 6 speed.
As to modifications, I would look for one as stock as possible as I like to do my own performance modifications/parts shopping/etc. I would definately look at MCS coilovers as a serious upgrade and would get some single adjustables for it once you have shook the car down. Also a set of square wheels and tires (APEX wheels are cheap and rugged) to run square rubber (275's fit all around) is about the extent of modifications necessary aside from the shock setup. Watch for rod bearings around 100k miles, Vanos hubs (repair is well known), and rear subframe mounts tearing. Aside from that, they are very DIY friendly and are bulletproof as hell.
The stock suspension is definately firm and the chassis is so stiff it feels a bit jarring TBH compared to the earlier BMWs. This is where a higher end dampner (JRZ/MCS/etc) really shine as the car with a high end dampner can ride half as jarring as the stock setup even on springs twice as stiff.
I actually have a line on one perfectly setup (Vanos/bearings/coilovers/wheels/tires/etc done) silver one that my buddy may sell soon. HMU with some contact information and I will put you in touch.
+1 on the E46 M3. Personally I don't like the semi-trailing arm rear suspension in the Z3/M coupe cars, I'd rather have the E46 even if it's a little heavier.
As far as SMG goes, my M3 originally had one. It's interesting in that it's "automatic" in the sense that you don't push the clutch pedal, but you really need to drive it like it's a manual. If you try to drive it like an automatic (put your foot down for the torque you want and ignore the transmission) it winds up being really herky-jerky and it shifts like a 16-year-old who's on his 3rd lesson with the manual. You need to predict when it's going to shift (or put it in manual mode) and lift off the gas a bit as it does so.
In general I don't think I'd recommend one unless you have some kind of physical impairment that prevents you from operating a clutch pedal. SMG cars are cheaper by about the same amount as it costs to convert it to a 6-speed manual, so you won't save much (basically just labor) and the resale value likely won't be as good if it's converted.
I bought mine explicitly to turn it into a race car, so it was going to get an E36 5-speed anyway. The E36 box is lighter, stronger, and you'll never use 6th gear on the track.
If I didn't have too many cars now, I would definitely be interested in this Z3M Coupe under $20k.
A lot of good advice here... I'm going to vote for the BMW I own.. E92 BMW 335is.
Okay so its definitely going to be a E46 M3. After a bunch of internet searches they are plentiful, and run the gamut from perfect to rolling wreck. The nice thing is BMW made a lot of them.
Besides all the common problems is there a mileage at which you just want to walk away. Obviously how well a car has been taken care of and what service records are available would make a big difference. I'm also sure a PPI is a wise choice with a car like this, especially a high dollar one that might be hiding something.
I have seen a couple somewhat near by for under 10K. They are well used, and have over 100K miles, but at that price i can fix pretty much everything, and then know what I'm getting. Or do I want to just buy the best example I can afford?
In reply to D2W :
Don't buy one for under $10k. Buy one for upper teens and still plan on throwing $3k at it.
Focus on '05+
The Z3M are fun cars too, but are lacking a couple of things available in the Z4Ms. The S54 engine was fairly rare (most came with lower output S50 and S52).
Handling was a bit idiosyncratic - loosey goosey, not in the manner of some British cars that emulate a bunch of parts flying in loose formation, but in terms of keeping the rear end at the rear of the car, the roadster is particularly attention grabbing (the coupe, which is more than twice as stiff is a bit better).
For me, the only thing that strikes me as wrong about the coupe is the styling. I know many people love it, and maybe I was scared by an AMC Gremlin at an early age or something, but that large square butt just doesn't ring my chimes.
The Z4M is crisp and very accurate in handling (if it isn't, it probably needs suspension work). The coupe also has faster ratio steering than the roadster.
The E46 M3 is similar albeit a couple of hundred pounds heavier than the E86 Z4M, and for me at least it just ain't as pretty.
D2W said:I have seen a couple somewhat near by for under 10K. They are well used, and have over 100K miles, but at that price i can fix pretty much everything, and then know what I'm getting. Or do I want to just buy the best example I can afford?
The facelift model (I think it's '03 and later) has newer/better ABS (and TC/stability if you care about that).
They like to tear the subframe mounts out of the chassis, even cars that have never seen the track. I would not buy an E46 without having it inspected by a shop who knows the issue and has done several repairs on previous cars. The official BMW repair for it involves injecting foam into the chassis -- I'm told that not only does this not fix the problem, but when you go to do a proper fix (welding in reinforcement plates) it makes everything much harder. So look for one that has either already been repaired properly or has had no repairs at all but is still fixable.
Rod bearings and VANOS are the other two areas that need expensive maintenance. Those are DIYable (lots of write-ups out on the internet), but a car with documentation of proper work on them is worth something extra.
I wouldn't worry so much about miles from a mechanical standpoint, so long as the areas above are properly addressed. Cosmetics are a different story -- the light gray interiors do not wear very well and are generally considered the least desirable.
Miles are not a big issue as long as rod bearings, vanos, and rear subframe are addressed and the inspection intervals (valve adjustments) are maintained.
Obviously everything else is pretty standard fare with regards to preventative maintenance but the drivetrains are stout and can handle the abuse.
If you haven't found it yet, check the classifieds on e46fanatics.com. Lots of e46 M3 options listed there.
Also M3Forums and Bimmerforums!
Former BMW addict here. I’ve driven pretty much all of the best BMWs, with exception of the Z4 M (sadly).
I like the E36 chassis more (more nimble), but they are harder to find and older than the E46. I actually think the E36 is the best chassis BMW ever made, and I’ve owned an E30. The E46 will be much easier to find, is faster, and has quicker steering. As others have said, like all BMWs, they need more tire and camber up front than what they come with from the factory.
I have ridden in an SMG E46 M3 many times during autocross and it is jerky, but it is capable of shifting when a traditional MT cannot which has its benefits, especially in autocross.
DEFINITELY do a PPI on an E46. Best 100$ you can spend. For your needs and at your price, I think you’re right to look for an E46 M3.
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